As far as I know, at the moment, NO ŽAŽ stock can "stable" at Wembley Park sidings.
trains can recess there during return event traffic (with a train op on board), but stabling as in the sense of a train op leaving or joining the train there, cannot be done at the moment as (AFIAK) no agreed walk time for the purpose of booking on/off times exists
The sidings (all 5 of them) were used just a couple of months ago when Neasden depot was experiencing signalling problems within the depot.
There is nothing preventing outstabling of trains in the sidings overnight, and when it comes to walk times, they do, I believe, remain as they were when the sidings were surrounded by brick walls. Failing this, you simply need to get the train in there with ample time for the driver to get off and return to the DMT.
At present, there are no "booked" stablers, and as none of the duty sheets include "booked" walking time to/from the sheds. But a little common sense always goes a long way.
That may have been the case a few weeks back under local arrangement and in a "one off" situation, but in order to build this into a WTT or on a regular basis, walking times etc have still to be agreed.
"common sense", "taking a good guess" or "what happened 5 years ago", isn't good enough for the science of creating a train crew duty schedue!
As for the point on train prep, I imagine the trains would be prepped in Wembley Park sidings overnight, as there would be no scope to change trains over at Neasden as is the practice on other lines.
There simply wouldnt be paths out of the depot at the desired times to get 3 changed over trains into Wembley Park Sidings, allied to the fact that this could possibly result in the requirement for additional train ops.
That may have been the case a few weeks back under local arrangement and in a "one off" situation, but in order to build this into a WTT or on a regular basis, walking times etc have still to be agreed.
"common sense", "taking a good guess" or "what happened 5 years ago", isn't good enough for the science of creating a train crew duty schedue!
As for the point on train prep, I imagine the trains would be prepped in Wembley Park sidings overnight, as there would be no scope to change trains over at Neasden as is the practice on other lines.
There simply wouldnt be paths out of the depot at the desired times to get 3 changed over trains into Wembley Park Sidings, allied to the fact that this could possibly result in the requirement for additional train ops.
I could not disagree more with you on your whole post, and your assumptions could not be more wrong.
First off, the scheduling of trains into the timetable and duty sheets is not rocket science (despite those in the know making it look as if it is). If it was, how on earth did myself and a couple of colleagues easily work out how to get currently in-service trains to stable in the sidings, with no effect on duties or the service itself.
Second, to make it a permanent, written in arrangement does not take too much nouse either. It used to be in the timetables. Dust them off and see what we used to do. Like I said, the only real difference is the missing brickwork.
Third, the trains can be prepped in Wembley Sidings, in the same way in which they are prepped in Uxbridge, Watford and Rickmansworth sidings. In fact, there are still traction current arrangements to allow the sidings to be fed after normal traffic hours to allow time for trains stabled there to be prepped.
Fourth, to get "new" trains onto the road and "old" trains back to depot within a timetable is not a new phenomenon either. The H&C (for one) has been doing it for years now. Clean / fully prepped trains leave depot between 2130 and 2300, and effectively change over with other trains which are required back in depot for more indepth maintenance. Pathing in and out of depot doesn't have to happen at last knockings when everything is trying to stable. An hour or two prior to this is not a problem.
That may have been the case a few weeks back under local arrangement and in a "one off" situation, but in order to build this into a WTT or on a regular basis, walking times etc have still to be agreed.
"common sense", "taking a good guess" or "what happened 5 years ago", isn't good enough for the science of creating a train crew duty schedue!
As for the point on train prep, I imagine the trains would be prepped in Wembley Park sidings overnight, as there would be no scope to change trains over at Neasden as is the practice on other lines.
There simply wouldnt be paths out of the depot at the desired times to get 3 changed over trains into Wembley Park Sidings, allied to the fact that this could possibly result in the requirement for additional train ops.
I could not disagree more with you on your whole post, and your assumptions could not be more wrong.
First off, the scheduling of trains into the timetable and duty sheets is not rocket science (despite those in the know making it look as if it is). If it was, how on earth did myself and a couple of colleagues easily work out how to get currently in-service trains to stable in the sidings, with no effect on duties or the service itself.
Second, to make it a permanent, written in arrangement does not take too much nouse either. It used to be in the timetables. Dust them off and see what we used to do. Like I said, the only real difference is the missing brickwork.
Third, the trains can be prepped in Wembley Sidings, in the same way in which they are prepped in Uxbridge, Watford and Rickmansworth sidings. In fact, there are still traction current arrangements to allow the sidings to be fed after normal traffic hours to allow time for trains stabled there to be prepped.
Fourth, to get "new" trains onto the road and "old" trains back to depot within a timetable is not a new phenomenon either. The H&C (for one) has been doing it for years now. Clean / fully prepped trains leave depot between 2130 and 2300, and effectively change over with other trains which are required back in depot for more indepth maintenance. Pathing in and out of depot doesn't have to happen at last knockings when everything is trying to stable. An hour or two prior to this is not a problem.
1.) I didnt say it was rocket science, I stated it was a science, meaning everything has to be 100% accurate and be agreed by the union reps, ie approved walk times. Im sure you and your colleagues are more than capable of working out solutions to temporary problems, as I am sure most people armed with a WTT on this forum are. However translating it to a full time solution given all the constraints is not the same thing!
2.) No - it doesnt take too much nouse, but as per 1. It has to be agreed. Go back to my earlier post. At present there is no agreed walking time to/from WPS for a permanent WTT or TTN. What happens in an emergency situation, or 5 years ago, simply cannot be taken for granted when issuing a new WTT containing an element of stabling that has not occured for a number of years.
It doesn't matter whether there is no brickwork or the clouds in the sky are at a different angle. Union reps will want to exercise their right (correctly so) before new walking times are imposed upon them!!!
3.) Unclear on your point here. I stated that the trains are likely to be prepped in WPS. Not sure who you are disagreeing with???
4.) Fully aware of change over trains on other lines. As I stated, getting paths in and out of Neasden is not as easy as Hammersmith for example. Yes - you can put trains in earlier, but how early? Lets say you put a prepped train in at 2200 when there is a path available out of NDT. What if that trains working the next day didnt stable till 2345 and there was no easy way to fix the train to stable before 2200?
Also you need to take into account the finite nature of train op resource. Sending 3 prepped trains into WPS could potentially add on 90 minutes of additional driving time, which may not work with the current duty schedules, either at the time when paths are available out of NDT into WPS, or at any other time.
As I stated there is a science to all of this, not rocket, but a science. Thats possibly why they employ people to carry out such a role as opposed to letting other staff have a pop at it in their tea breaks?
Re: A60 STOCK Service withdrawal dates. « Reply #34 on Nov 2, 2009, 6:17pm »
You are clearly of the opinion, as a handful of others here are, that, rather than helping with the smooth operation of the railway and protection of their members, the unions are there simply to stop anything "new" happening.
On top of this, when you mention driver numbers, what of the additional staff being recruited in relation to Harrow?
Point 3 was a mistake on my part. I misread your post. I apologise.
If a train goes to the sidings early one evening, what is to stop it being used on a morning post-peak stabler?
Perhaps you should keep in mind the experience within our control room in comparison to other rooms, and realise we are more than capable to think of such things even in tea breaks. I am a Met Line Controller, not a mere rail enthusiast.
I think this brings to an end this discussion as far as I am concerned.
Joined: Aug 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 931 Location: Romford
Re: A60 STOCK Service withdrawal dates. « Reply #37 on Nov 2, 2009, 10:14pm »
There seem to be very definite dates for A stock removal, although I daresay things could change if some units fail completely, with these being withdrawn ahead of schedule.
Are stock withdrawals always planned out in as much detail as this? The last major withdrawal of stock was the 1959 / 62 stock - was this done in a similar way?
You are clearly of the opinion, as a handful of others here are, that, rather than helping with the smooth operation of the railway and protection of their members, the unions are there simply to stop anything "new" happening.
On top of this, when you mention driver numbers, what of the additional staff being recruited in relation to Harrow?
Point 3 was a mistake on my part. I misread your post. I apologise.
If a train goes to the sidings early one evening, what is to stop it being used on a morning post-peak stabler?
Perhaps you should keep in mind the experience within our control room in comparison to other rooms, and realise we are more than capable to think of such things even in tea breaks. I am a Met Line Controller, not a mere rail enthusiast.
I think this brings to an end this discussion as far as I am concerned.
"I am a Met Line Controller, not a mere rail enthusiast"
Quality
and everything you have talked about in our discussion comes from the 'short term/day to day/on the day viewpoint', things that you may have put in place to fix on the spot problems (as per NDT a few months back).
What you do not appear to grasp are the strategic medium and long term planning elements as required to effect stock rotation, 24 hour train prep, train crew duty schedules (within the accepted TU framework and the finite train operator resource available), infraco consultation etc etc.
when any of the above are put in to place for a WTT, a large number of people need to buy into and agree to such changes, no matter how small or insignificant you may think they are (walking times to WPS).
Ignoring the little issues like this can be the downfall of any plan/project, especially when dealing with a unionised institution!
so we come full circle, back to my original point, that at the moment trains cant stable at Wembley Park sidings on a permanent basis by means of a WTT, until a walking time for train ops is agreed.
NO A STOCK DUE TO BE SCRAPPED BEFORE TRAIN 6 OF THE S STOCK IS IN FULL SERVICE.
For various reasons the disposal date is being treated as the service withdrawal date. ( not the scrapping date ).
The schedule takes into account - the last time the unit was lifted ( Programme lift ), component recovery, and the S stock timetable for service introduction.
If the S Stock goes very well these units could go up to three months ahead of the dates shown.
There are 10 units set to go on 16.01.2012, so the last in service date for the A60'S in now much clearer.
Nearly all the last units are the double ended de - icer units for obvious reasons.
116 units are on the list, if users require details on one unit, i can provide these at no extra cost.
I'm not saying that this data is incorrect, this isn't really my part of the project. I did speak to the Project Manager responsible for scrapping the 'A' Stock today and they were very suprised to see this list. According to them they have not yet finalised what will be going and when.
Again, not saying this is wrong but I just thought it worth mentioning.
Re: A60 STOCK Service withdrawal dates. « Reply #41 on Nov 8, 2009, 11:11am »
Why should walking time be an issue? Has Wembley Park shed moved then? OK, I know the new stock is a bit lopnger, but we had this discussion at Waterloo many years ago after the flexible rostering strike of the early 1980's.
5 mins walking from the mess room to any platform was impossible. The shed master at the time tried it; he was a slow walker and in the evening peak it took him 12 mins from the mess room to platform 1, so reluctantly agreed a longer walking time.
Unions are there to negotiate with. they have a useful input and if they are consulted early enough in the process, alot of management time could be saved.
Maybe the control staff have the same tunnel vision (no pun intended) that drivers have, only looking at that day's events which could also cause problems tomorrow. Drivers only concentrate on what is in front of them. Again, if control staff are consulted, they usually have useful experience which could be passed on to the planners.
Why should walking time be an issue? Has Wembley Park shed moved then? OK, I know the new stock is a bit lopnger, but we had this discussion at Waterloo many years ago after the flexible rostering strike of the early 1980's.
5 mins walking from the mess room to any platform was impossible. The shed master at the time tried it; he was a slow walker and in the evening peak it took him 12 mins from the mess room to platform 1, so reluctantly agreed a longer walking time.
Unions are there to negotiate with. they have a useful input and if they are consulted early enough in the process, alot of management time could be saved.
Maybe the control staff have the same tunnel vision (no pun intended) that drivers have, only looking at that day's events which could also cause problems tomorrow. Drivers only concentrate on what is in front of them. Again, if control staff are consulted, they usually have useful experience which could be passed on to the planners.
The shed is no longer a shed, and the roads themselves were renewed. Unfortunately in this day and age, when you change something, even if it is for something almost identical, new agreements have to be reached. The Health and Safety and Union orientated world we work in - just as in many other companies worldwide - means the i's have to be dotted and the t's crossed.
Unfortunately, this can result in a world where we did have many many staff who would go slightly above and beyond the call of duty - for example walking an extra minute or so and not worrying about it. In today's climate, they are basically forbidden from doing so in case their colleague is against it.
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