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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2006 18:28:21 GMT
(stephenk) wrote: In what way are you calling it a "botch up"? The seats are just less padded than other tube seats, but I wouldn't describe it as you did. Given that many metros use hard plastic seats on new trains, you shouldn't really be complaining. Firstly yes the 92's seats are a botch up (uncomfortable in simple English) as everybody knows who has used the central line over the years. Plus there have been many threads of comments regarding the 92's seats. Secondly i merely commented from looking at the picture, as i haven't been to see the mock up that the 09 mock up seats look like the seats of the 92's. All this clearly stated in my question.This is a visual comment and not moaning as you interpreted. This is a discussion forum hey. So I'd appreciate a sensible reply of those who have tested out the mock up rather than silly comments. Oh and i don't really care what the seats are made of on other systems around the world. As made clear by many on here the seats on lul stocks have always been a concern and are part of our heritage so enough of the irrelevant comments just for the sake of having the last word. Now back to the 09 stock.. A "botch up" generally decribes something that wasn't intended. Whilst I'm sure the 92TS seats were intended to be hard in the first place. Personally I don't think they are too uncomfortable. I'm sure most members of the public really don't care, or havn't even noticed the difference between the seat bouncyness of different tube stock. The 09TS seats are more comfortable than the 92TS. I'm wouldn't be surprised if the slim design of the cushion is to create slightly more space under the seats for equipment, or just to make the design more simple. Given the relatively short journey lengths on the Victoria Line (and low chances of getting a seat anyway during the peaks), I can't quite see harder seats being a major issue. Comparing LU seats to other metro seats is an issue. Most new metro trains are being made in almost a kit form to reduce construction and maintenance costs. Thus train interior design is increasingly being standardised. The trend is heading towards either completely plastic seats, or harder fabric seats (as on the DLR). Thus I think the days of seats that resemble bouncy castles is over. They may be historically the classic seat of LU, but in history things have to change. You may not like 92TS seats, but they are still far better than the seats that millions of people travel on around the world.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 0:33:00 GMT
I fully agree, Stephenk. Once I was in Singapore with my dad, and we travelled from Somerset to Keranji! My bum was starting to get numb...
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Aug 22, 2006 1:13:38 GMT
I'm sure most members of the public would care if they could easily express their views and thought that someone who had authority would listen and take heed. I hate to be taking a stubborn view on this, but people like comfortable seats and decoré that doesnt look all plasticy and cheap. I'm sure most people dont bother saying it cos most people arent asked, or dont think anyone will actually care what they think. We pay a lot, and its only going to get more expensive over the next 30 years; but the seats will most likely stay even if they are uncomfortable. Like Markextube, I haven't been to see the mock up yet. However, my opinion wont change; even if it isnt applicable to the new Victoria Line seats. Hard seats are annoying; I just hope my posterior wont be dissapointed by these. However, I have full confidence that LUL are unlike other metro's in just striving for ecconomy, and will provide decent seats.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2006 1:53:33 GMT
If the seats are so bloody uncomfortable, then why not bring two pillows and use them?!?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 22, 2006 4:28:45 GMT
Folks, can we please keep comments constructive.
Thanks in advance, Colin.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2006 7:58:48 GMT
Why not have machines that sell square pillows 15 inches long and 5 thick, for 75p each? They can be returned, but you only get 25p back. If they are returned, they are washed (obviously). Opinions please.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2006 8:08:05 GMT
Why not have machines that sell square pillows 15 inches long and 5 thick, for 75p each? They can be returned, but you only get 25p back. If they are returned, they are washed (obviously). Opinions please. Read above post please
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2006 8:30:27 GMT
My post wasn't constructive? Please explain, and forgive my lack of grey matter.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 23, 2006 10:31:40 GMT
From my dictionary:
Constructive adj useful; helpful
Your comments, watson374, are neither useful nor helpful to the conversation.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2006 10:44:46 GMT
Now getting this thread back on track.... ....after making observations on existing tube stock, I'm increasingly concerned that the pole in the door area on the 09TS is too close to the fixed seats. Now I know the pole is positioned that way to increase the space available to the wheelchair/tip-up seat area. But would it be possible to move the pole slightly further (circa 20cm) away from the fixed seating area, but without compromising access to the wheelchair/tip-up seat area. Have any studies been done with the mock up or real train concerning passenger movement on a busy train between the fixed seating area and the doors? A pic of the offending pole is here:- www.flickr.com/photos/stephenk1977/211241979/in/set-1617237/
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Post by Tomcakes on Aug 23, 2006 10:54:00 GMT
Why can't it be put in the middle of the circulation area as with other stocks? Wheelchair / buggy users are only likely to be travelling off-peak when crowding is less of a problem so they can squeeze in easier.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Aug 23, 2006 10:57:03 GMT
I asked Paul about that (and the massive intrusion into the standing area shown in your previous pic) and he said both were all down to DDA, regardless of the effect on the able-bodied.
In his opinion, customers will soon learn to avoid the DDA cars if they can..........
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Post by Chris M on Aug 23, 2006 11:21:31 GMT
I know that (prjb?) made the comment when we were viewing it that the RNIB had been to look at the train, but have there been any comments from wheelchair users about the layout? Designing it in theory is all well and good, but until it is actually tested you cannot be certain that a wheelchair user can actually get to the wheelchair spaces.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 23, 2006 22:22:04 GMT
Now getting this thread back on track.... ....after making observations on existing tube stock, I'm increasingly concerned that the pole in the door area on the 09TS is too close to the fixed seats. Now I know the pole is positioned that way to increase the space available to the wheelchair/tip-up seat area. But would it be possible to move the pole slightly further (circa 20cm) away from the fixed seating area, but without compromising access to the wheelchair/tip-up seat area. Have any studies been done with the mock up or real train concerning passenger movement on a busy train between the fixed seating area and the doors? A pic of the offending pole is here:- www.flickr.com/photos/stephenk1977/211241979/in/set-1617237/Bombardier have carried out lots of studies on movement and usage inside the car in all loading conditions with all body types ranging from 5th percentile female through to 95th percentile male. The distances and dimensions are all regulated by RVAR (Rail Vehicle Accessibilty Regulations - which is basically the DDA for new build trains) and industry best practice where no regulations or guidelines exist. As an example, Bombardier utilise playground guidlines for fixtures and fittings to ensure that surfaces and internal furniture do not pose a problem to the young. Now I know this will open up the thread to lots of comments but when you think about it, it shows that they are trying hard to get this right when they seek out guidelines of this type.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 23, 2006 22:29:01 GMT
Why can't it be put in the middle of the circulation area as with other stocks? Wheelchair / buggy users are only likely to be travelling off-peak when crowding is less of a problem so they can squeeze in easier. We cannot presume when and where a mobility impaired customer will want to travel and under the policy they have every right to travel when they want. If a person in a wheelchair works 9 - 5 then there is every chance they will travel during the peak hours. Other stocks were not governed by RVAR as the regulations were not in place, 09ts is the first LU stock to be legislated in this way.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 23, 2006 22:34:55 GMT
I asked Paul about that (and the massive intrusion into the standing area shown in your previous pic) and he said both were all down to DDA, regardless of the effect on the able-bodied. In his opinion, customers will soon learn to avoid the DDA cars if they can.......... I think that the RVAR areas will soon be considered the norm and that regardless of the legislation they will go largely unused by the audience they are designed for. Customers with heavy bags or buggies will welcome them and the other multi-purpose areas. At least with the tip-up seats the areas will still be able to be utilised in a conventional fashion by the able bodied which is, I think, a fair compromise.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Aug 23, 2006 22:38:05 GMT
I know that (prjb?) made the comment when we were viewing it that the RNIB had been to look at the train, but have there been any comments from wheelchair users about the layout? Designing it in theory is all well and good, but until it is actually tested you cannot be certain that a wheelchair user can actually get to the wheelchair spaces. All the relevant user groups attended the mock-up event and LU/MRSSL had few negative comments by all accounts. The thing about RVAR is that it seems to me (an uneducated observer in these matters) that they are well thought out and things such as space and provision of back boards are stipulated to ensure that the final product is actually going to be fit for purpose.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Sept 5, 2006 18:03:01 GMT
Looks like things are happening on the resignalling front.On Friday 8th a 4 car 67TS test train will run to Oxo and secure,on Saturday 9th to Euston and secure,and on Sunday 10th to Seven Sisters and secure.It's a Westinghouse Rail train,maybe prjb can enlighten us further.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Sept 5, 2006 18:23:08 GMT
It sounds like the 'Config B' test train which has been on the test track at Derby for what seems like an eternity. This train is passively fitted out with the new WRSL (Westinghouse Rails & Signalling Ltd) ATO/Signalling equipment so my first guess would be that. I'm off work at the moment but will enquire later in the week and update you accordingly!
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Post by trc666 on Sept 5, 2006 20:11:29 GMT
Looks like things are happening on the resignalling front.On Friday 8th a 4 car 67TS test train will run to Oxo and secure,on Saturday 9th to Euston and secure,and on Sunday 10th to Seven Sisters and secure.It's a Westinghouse Rail train,maybe prjb can enlighten us further. What time would this be going out, would it be during a possession?
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Sept 6, 2006 0:17:22 GMT
In engineering hours and it would be a possession.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Sept 6, 2006 1:58:13 GMT
a 4 car 67TS test train will run to Oxo I soooooo hate that!! It's Oxford Circus, not a bloomin' gravy cube!! [/rant] ;D ;D ;D ;D
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Sept 6, 2006 18:28:32 GMT
Sorry,but it's been Oxo on the Underground more years than I care to remember.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Sept 8, 2006 19:09:28 GMT
I have spoken to the VLU team about the test train. I have been told that 'Config B' has indeed departed Derby for London and is due to carry out testing in due course. However, it is their opinion that the test paths are for the "New Auto Drive Box" (NADB) tests rather than 'Config B'. Confused? I am! It seems a bit too much of a co-incidence to me, so I intend to do a little more digging next week. Watch this space.
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Post by prjb on Sept 12, 2006 21:00:06 GMT
I was up in Derby today for an 'S' Stock meeting and happened upon a full 8 cars of 09ts running up and down the test track. It looked and sounded quite good and even had the blue skirt applied to all the cars. It is gutted inside (no saloon furniture) and the cab has some equipment missing (OPO monitors etc) but it looks like BTUK are getting ready for the Vic line testing regime.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2006 21:02:51 GMT
No piccies... when will we see some?
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Sept 12, 2006 21:05:12 GMT
To be honest, I have some very poor quality phone pictures and a short video clip. I cannot post them without permission, but I will ask and I will point out that there are other photo's of this type on the net.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2006 21:06:22 GMT
so presumably when you are going to see the S stock on test, you will be looking at the new Bakerloo stock ;D
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Sept 12, 2006 21:27:29 GMT
Well, it pays the bills!
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Post by richardh on Sept 17, 2006 12:30:47 GMT
The new trains look great. I prefer the 2009TS to the S stock though. Any ideas what the 2009TS will sound like? (Like LT1996 hopefully?!) ;D
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