Possible new trains?

[Dstock7080]

I see that Alstom have revealed their new "X'Trapolis" train as a possible contender for the Thameslink and CrossRail contracts:
tinyurl.com/nprput

It wants to use the same "bogie offset articulation technology" as the proposed 'EVO1' design for the new Bakerloo Line trains:
Alstom's X'Trapolis:
tinyurl.com/lserw5

Bakerloo EVO1:
tinyurl.com/lc4eg8

[Ben]

They both look disgusting.

I have a leaflet somewhere from about 5 years ago that went to engineering schools 6th form design students which was about a competition to design the crossrail trains. It was a legit thing; involved Crossrail ltd, the LT museum, TfL. Must have had quite a take up across the capital. I never did design at school but I know a lot of people who did and some of them entered. Anyway, my point is that even the scrawlings of a bunch of spotty-faced 16/17 year olds still beat the design of a multi-national company in terms of aesthetics.

Why is this bogie offset thing so popular now? Whats wrong with articulation and placing the bogie centrally under the carriage ends?

[21146]

Just when I thought modern trains couldn't get any uglier...

"X'Trapolis" - they can't even spell correctly.

I can just imagine the marketing types that came up with that name.

[21146]

Not many passenger doors either.

[Deleted]

Sept 20, 2009 16:44:44 GMT Ben said:

They both look disgusting.

Why??

[Deleted]

Sept 20, 2009 12:56:06 GMT Dstock7080 said:

I see that Alstom have revealed their new "X'Trapolis" train as a possible contender for the Thameslink and CrossRail contracts:
tinyurl.com/nprput

Is it really nessessary for these trains to have a streamlined front?
They aren't going to run on high speed cross country lines and the streamlined front is a waste of space in tunnel platforms.

The door arrangement also looks wrong, with the two sets of doors together, then a wide gap between the next two sets of doors.

[Deleted]

I like them, a nice and fresh design. By the way, having a streamlined nose makes perfect sense considering these trains will be expected to reach 160 KM/h after all.

The Financial Times has some background on some of the design choices:

Alstom’s X’Trapolis design, to be made public on Tuesday, will feature a single long internal space with wide openings between each section, instead of the distinct carriages and narrow gangways of traditional UK trains. Doors will also be positioned to encourage the most efficient flow of passengers.
[...]
The design has been inspired partly by new demands from the Department for Transport and Network Rail, the track owner, for manufacturers to reduce the damage their vehicles do to the track. It would be the first British domestic heavy rail design since the experimental Advanced Passenger Train in the 1970s to rely on “articulation”. While most rail carriages have eight wheels housed in two separate, swivelling bogies, most carriages on articulated trains have only four wheels and rest some of their weight on the neighbouring vehicle.

Alstom believes the reduction in wheel numbers will reduce track wear by cutting the number of times wheels pass over each section and by cutting the trains’ weight.

The articulated design will allow the X’Trapolis to be wider than the UK average. It will also allow the joins between vehicle sections to be wider, creating a feeling of space. Alstom believes passengers will be able to board and alight more quickly on the X’Trapolis’s twin sets of doors near the vehicle centres.
Full article on FT.com

[Deleted]

To me the train look like a cross between the newest Hong Kong MTR and regional trains used in Holland. If Crossrail runs as well as either of those services, I won't complain too much! While I'm not a fan of the aesthetics, ultimately I am more concerned with practicality and comfort. From the look of it, both will be in abundance in this design.

I do agree that the doors need to be spaced a little better though. Possibly like the proposed design in the diagram of the EVO1 for the Bakerloo.

[Chris M]

Sept 20, 2009 18:25:37 GMT @jim said:

Is it really nessessary for these trains to have a streamlined front?
They aren't going to run on high speed cross country lines and the streamlined front is a waste of space in tunnel platforms.

My impression from the article was that the fronts are combined streamlining and crumple zones.

[100andthirty]

for Thameslink, where they want 12, 20m cars, the X'trapolis design has 15 cars (due to the articulation each car is shorter). ths delivers 30 sets of doors - 6 more than on a conventional train.

[plasmid]

I saw this article published in the latest digital issue of the Railway Herald.

If by fact the design of the bogies is more efficient, cost-effective, weight reducing (which leads to better performance) than "user opinion" is irrelevant.

At the end of the day when a train enters a platform about 2 in 100 people will actually "care" and pay attention to the mechanical side of the train. 5 in 100 people will "care" about where the doors are and 10 in 100 people will actually "care" about the interior design of the stock.

If the train is a step forward in engineering which gives many benefits than it should be praised for the "effort" in making it so.

I think the design is quite interesting although most of the people on this forum do enjoy quite a good old rant, very quick to point out the negatives.

[Deleted]

Sept 21, 2009 9:42:11 GMT plasmid said:

At the end of the day when a train enters a platform about 2 in 100 people will actually "care" and pay attention to the mechanical side of the train. 5 in 100 people will "care" about where the doors are and 10 in 100 people will actually "care" about the interior design of the stock.

I think the design is quite interesting although most of the people on this forum do enjoy quite a good old rant, very quick to point out the negatives.

I have to disagree here, people are interested about the doors. These trains are currently aimed at the Thameslink replacement stock (NXEMU's) with the hope Crossrail will pick the design too. The first one will be in service before the Crossrail order is placed s Im sure TfL will be looking at FCC's trial running of the units. Well actually I know they will.

I think most people would like to have the ability to get off the train easily than a really good looking train and I think these trains offer that. The fact they get closer to curve platforms is a big bonus Alstom need to make more of especially for wheelchair users and customers with buggys. Just remember at the moment the bids are in for Thameslink so all three bidders can't talk about the specs of actual trains yet but give a general view. And that what this is, the basic train which can be tailored to the users needs, all the ends are purely possible verisons and are likely to change.

[Deleted]

To be quite honest, I just wish the rail industry would stick with trains (and other technology such as signalling) that have a tried, tested and trusted record of reliability instead of taking leaps with "radical" new designs that lead us to the inevitable lengthy "teething troubles" - which eventually necessisate endless line-closures to put right what should have been right from the start had ambition not exceeded practicality.

[Oracle]

The previous suggestion was achieved with the Class 312 derivative of the 310, for GNR electrification services. At the time of introduction they were said in the railway press to be very reliable, after the basic design had been tried and tested.

[Deleted]

Oct 6, 2009 9:58:19 GMT @tubeflight said:

To be quite honest, I just wish the rail industry would stick with trains (and other technology such as signalling) that have a tried, tested and trusted record of reliability instead of taking leaps with "radical" new designs that lead us to the inevitable lengthy "teething troubles"

Such as steam trains?

Short car, wider bodied trains are already tried and tested.

[Deleted]

Short car, wider bodied trains are already tried and tested.

How about 4-wheel wagons on 7-foot gauge - that's surely been tested! ;D

[Deleted]

Oct 6, 2009 9:58:19 GMT @tubeflight said:

To be quite honest, I just wish the rail industry would stick with trains (and other technology such as signalling) that have a tried, tested and trusted record of reliability instead of taking leaps with "radical" new designs that lead us to the inevitable lengthy "teething troubles" - which eventually necessisate endless line-closures to put right what should have been right from the start had ambition not exceeded practicality.

I have to say thats very short sighted of you. The main reason new trains designs are being bidded for is the fact no current train does whats needed. Using Thameslink as an example of here as I work there. The current design of train cannot simply cope with the amount of people using the stations and trains currently never mind what is projected for 10 years time. The only way to achieve the capacity needed would be to double Thameslink through the Core section and likes likely it would need three tracks each way within 20 years. This would mean a massive buliding plan costing billions of pounds and destroying everything in its path. Historical building would have to be knocked down as their foundations would be in the way along with local roads and stations.

These trains are design to provide a step change in capacity that current stock cannot cope with. That is the real reason for these rather than upgrading for the sake of it. Also note the idea in theory is to provide a standard stock for the next ten years like the current Electrostar and Desiro models do currently.

Also Im sure any people with difficults in travelling, ie wheelchair user will welcome upgrading trains.

Current delivery is along these lines with months of testing. Currently 6-9 months of testing is expected if not more.

2012
*New depot open before the first trains arrive at Three bridges
*Testing "south of London" in 2012 (March-May is suggested)

2013
*First NXEMU in service on TL (original plan had one "full length" train in service for the Olympics)

2014
*New depot at Hornsey open
*Testing "north of London"
*First GN passenger run

2015 - December
*St Pancras - Finbury Park link open

Note as well FCC used a current technology in the 377/5 and they are currently one of the most unrealible train in service (amoung the EMUs) so sometimes sticking with the current techology isn't a great idea either. Sure the passengers using the Jubilee would agree too with the older ex-Central Line signalling always running into problems.

[100andthirty]

the standardisation versus innovation debate has been going on for almost as long as there have been railways. If you take standardisation to its logical conclusion then Stephenson's rocket might still be on the list for Thameslink.

I would not want to standardise on Electrostars or Desiros. they are good trains but far too heavy - amongst other deficiencies.