Any ideas on this one?

[Deleted]

Whilst searching for images of the GN & City line, I came across this one:

ronfisher.fotopic.net/p49944364.html

I can't quite wor out whether the train is departing or has just arrived and overrun the platform. Anyone any ideas?

Moderator's Comment: this is not an invitation to discuss the whys and wherefores of the later Moorgate crash, so please don't. Thank you.

[Deleted]

The picture is interesting, note the sign warning of carbide refuse and the open topped latrine, judging by the 'Gentlemen' sign on the door.

Perhaps it's some sort of stock move with an extra car or two, the train having pulled right up to the stops to clear the junction and associated signalling? It looks like the car lights are not illuminated.

I like these ones: ronfisher.fotopic.net/p49925088.html and ronfisher.fotopic.net/p49925087.html

[Deleted]

I am wondering if the first photo really is at Moorgate. If it is it would be the southbound platform No.10. There was signalling for coupling up at Moorgate GN&C but I am fairly certain it wasn't used on a regular basis.

My gut feeling is that it is Finsbury Park GN&C, northbound platform (currently the WB Picc). I say that because trains were coupled and uncoupled here, and would have stabled right up to the end of the line, in this case, into the tunnel to the fixed red light.

In 1961, the stock output from Finsbury Park was 3x2, 1x4 (used to couple to a 2-car) and 1x6. This meant that the station had to accommodate 16 cars overnight.

So, as for being at Moorgate or Finsbury Park .... ?

[mrfs42]

Dec 6, 2009 10:52:17 GMT @david5032 said:

Whilst searching for images of the GN & City line, I came across this one:

ronfisher.fotopic.net/p49944364.html

Dec 6, 2009 14:21:21 GMT @reganorak said:

I am wondering if the first photo really is at Moorgate. If it is it would be the southbound platform No.10. There was signalling for coupling up at Moorgate GN&C but I am fairly certain it wasn't used on a regular basis.

I think you're right - the main differences between the the two installations (Moorgate vs. Finsbury Park) is that the platform track circuits at Moorgate were not split half-way down the platform; making me think that it was irregular use.

Dec 6, 2009 14:21:21 GMT @reganorak said:

My gut feeling is that it is Finsbury Park GN&C, northbound platform (currently the WB Picc). I say that because trains were coupled and uncoupled here, and would have stabled right up to the end of the line, in this case, into the tunnel to the fixed red light.

Looking at the picture - there seems to be about 50' of the tunnel occupied by the DM - which ties in nicely with my notes as there was an over-run tunnel of 67' in the NB at FPk, making 17' as a plausible length for a sand-drag - so my money's on Finsbury Park.

By 1962, Finsbury Park had to hold 6 + 3x2 cars overnight.

[Tom]

It's Finsbury Park - Moorgate had biscuit tiles and the Greathead shield at the end of the tunnel.

[Ben]

The tiles look almost pearlised in that picture. Quite pleasant.

[SE13]

It can't be Moorgate unless the picture is flipped, well certainly not the over-run section. The platform at Moorgate was on the left of the over-run tunnel was it not?

[Oracle]

It's not flipped. I only ever went on the line once so I can't comment save to say that it's an interesting shot.

[SE13]

The text has now been edited and states that it is indeed Finsbury Park.

Case solved

[norbitonflyer]

Dec 8, 2009 12:15:13 GMT SE13 said:

The platform at Moorgate was on the left of the over-run tunnel was it not?

Each station on the NCL had the same layout, with the platforms between the tracks. (FP and H&I were remodelled for the Victoria Line works)
Therefore at the termini (FP and Moorgate) one platform (10) was to the left of the over-run tunnel and the other (9) to the right. (or vice versa if you're looking the other way)

[hobbayne]

Dec 8, 2009 14:16:26 GMT SE13 said:

The text has now been edited and states that it is indeed Finsbury Park.

Case solved

So this is currently the westbound Piccadilly Line platform?
What happened to the original Picc platform then? is it now used by the Vic?
More to the point, how did they connect it to the original tunnels to arsenal and manor house??

[Deleted]

Many thanks for the replies folks; I just knew something stood out about this picture.

Dec 8, 2009 20:41:32 GMT hobbayne said:

So this is currently the westbound Piccadilly Line platform?
What happened to the original Picc platform then? is it now used by the Vic?
More to the point, how did they connect it to the original tunnels to arsenal and manor house??

I have a booklet somewhere with a diagram of how the lines were built/ diverted. If I can find it over the weekend, I will scan it and put it up here.

[gantshill]

Hi,

Fascinating thread. One of the first underground books I bought was from the LT museum at Syon House, The Story of the Vicotria Line for 40p. It has plans of the various cross-platform interchanges, including Finsbury Park.
I knew I'd seen a copy of the diagram on the internet, and have just found it at
husk.org/www.geocities.com/athens/acropolis/7069/stations.html follow the link to Finsbury Park.

Slightly off topic, were there over-run tunnels on the Piccadilly Line at Finsbury Park before the Cockfosters extension?

Thanks to anyone who can help.

[mrfs42]

Dec 8, 2009 21:29:49 GMT gantshill said:

Slightly off topic, were there over-run tunnels on the Piccadilly Line at Finsbury Park before the Cockfosters extension?

Yes; they were certainly in existance by 1907 as they were part of the platform track circuits; unfortunately I have no idea of length in this period.

However, when the signalling was altered on 7th November 1931 at Finsbury Park the signal (F11) to enter the dead end was 25' from the platform and the signal (F3) to enter the platform was 150' from F11, these new signals were on the end of the eastbound road.

Although the notice doesn't explicity state that there is a new length of line being commissioned, I suspect this noticecovers the 'opening' of the dead end, as the EB home signals were moved out by 165' and the pair of home signals side-by-side in the frame F15^A/B and F14^A/B became F14^A/B and F13^A/B, with the former home becoming the new eastbound outer home F15 950' east of the station.

At some point between 1907 and 1931 there must have been an alteration - possibly when uncoupling came in as the original F15^A/B aspects were not home and calling on as they were before this alteration, the aspects on opening were left/right depending on the platform. FPk was originally provided with a 15 lever frame, allowing future expansion.

[SE13]

Dec 8, 2009 20:41:32 GMT hobbayne said:

Dec 8, 2009 14:16:26 GMT SE13 said:

The text has now been edited and states that it is indeed Finsbury Park.

Case solved

So this is currently the westbound Piccadilly Line platform?
What happened to the original Picc platform then? is it now used by the Vic?
More to the point, how did they connect it to the original tunnels to arsenal and manor house??

Interested to know that myself.

However, surely it could only be E/B (Or North as a lot of people see it) the platform is the wrong way round.

[Rich32]

Dec 8, 2009 21:56:29 GMT SE13 said:

Dec 8, 2009 20:41:32 GMT hobbayne said:

So this is currently the westbound Piccadilly Line platform?
What happened to the original Picc platform then? is it now used by the Vic?
More to the point, how did they connect it to the original tunnels to arsenal and manor house??

Interested to know that myself. However, surely it could only be E/B (Or North as a lot of people see it) the platform is the wrong way round.

To clarify - the NCL platforms are now the S/B platforms, the southernmost being the Vic and as for the old Picc Platforms, the N/B Picc remains unchanged, with the N/B Vic running through what was the S/B Picc.

The tunnels were connected with step plate tunnels to a new alignment to bring them back to the original tunnel. Clicky

[roythebus]

The diagram is fascinating and throws up another question: where do the Picc and Victoria tunnels cross over again norht of FP?

I remember seeing the step plate tunnels being built as I used to bunk off school (tsk tsk) regularly to travel on the tube! The Picc trains would run through the area at reduced speed, probably 10mph.

The NCL was replaced by a bus service for many years between Drayton Park and FP, usually by a motely fleet provided by Mellows Hire.

I managed to travel on the Vic on the first day from Walthamstow Central. I hoped to get a first day ticket (which I did), but it was only a standard BR one as the ticket office was run by BR.

As I may have mentioned elsewhere in these boards, I worked on the NCL during its rebuild to BR spec. The farthest I got with battery locos was about Old Street, then had a long walk to get a bus back to KX! We got a 31 stuck in the tunnel at DP one day, and an 08 managed to get to somewhere near Highbury on one occasion!

[Phil]

Dec 8, 2009 21:56:29 GMT SE13 said:

However, surely it could only be E/B (Or North as a lot of people see it) the platform is the wrong way round.

It would have been the N/B on the GN&C if the extension had ever been built, but it did indeed become the W/B picc, as shown on the diagram already linked to. note that North is shown as pointing to the right of the diagram

And being the 60s, the whole job was done without interrupting services on the Picc - you'd hardly imagine that happeining these days...

[norbitonflyer]

Dec 9, 2009 11:42:57 GMT Phil said:

And being the 60s, the whole job was done without interrupting services on the Picc - you'd hardly imagine that happeining these days...

Indeed, I recall seeing somewhere a picture taken inside the new step plate junction before the old Piccadilly tunnel lining had been removed. The wider tunnel was excavated around the existing lining - I believe part of the CSLR was converted in the same way.

[ruislip]

Dec 9, 2009 10:34:22 GMT roythebus said:

The NCL was replaced by a bus service for many years between Drayton Park and FP, usually by a motely fleet provided by Mellows Hire.

Did LT provide any replacement buses for this service?

[mrfs42]

Not sure - when I return home (currently sat in a hotel in the Midlands) I'll have a look because I know I've got a copy of TTN 153/63 for the Northern City; which covered the introduction of the RRBS in the evenings between Drayton and Finsbury Parks.

All I can remember at this remove is that it was an evening recast of WTT 15B.

[Deleted]

Evening All,

As I took the original picture that started this thread, I though that you might perhaps be interested in my two pennyworth.

Initially, I had written 'Finsbury Park' on the slide mount, but, at a later stage, I obviously had second thoughts as I had crossed out Finsbury Park and written 'Moorgate' in its place. However, following the discussions in this thread, I now know that I had it right the first time!

Thanks for all your comments; I have changed the caption accordingly.

I must confess that I had not twigged that the old GN&C line platforms were still in use today. We change trains at Finsbury Park on a semi regular basis thesedays; presumably the spiral staircase that leads down from the passageway underneath the main line platforms is the original access to the GN&C line platforms. I shall have to have a look at it more closely next time we are there.

Despite living in London at that time and travelling daily on the Underground, I regret that I took very few photographs. I just took it for granted, I suppose. However, together with a couple of friends, I did a tour of London Transport one Saturday in April, 1964 and the pictures I took that day are the ones now on my Fotopic site.

Interestingly, I was to be reacquainted with Drayton Park some years later when the line was taken over by B.R. and the car sheds were no longer needed. The track in the sheds and yard was purchased by the Ffestiniog Railway on the understanding that the F.R. would be responsible for lifting it and removing it from the site.

I was closely involved with the London Area Group of the Ffestiniog Railway Society at the time and we were asked by Allan Garraway, the Ffestiniog Railway's General Manager at the time, whether we could lift the track and load it onto the bogie bolster wagon that he was arranging to be sent there.

We readily agreed, and I contacted everybody that I could think of in the London area that had ever been on working parties to North Wales. Over about three weekends we duly lifted the track in the shed, and then the yard, before stacking it neatly on the wagon ready to be transported to Wales.

So, after many, many years of carrying nothing more than slow moving or stationery tube trains, those rails found themselves under trainloads of happy tourists. I wonder how many readers of this forum were aware of that?

Ron Fisher.

[tubeprune]

I was on the Picc at the time of the changeover. Our road training for the new tunnel and platform was a buck-shee Sunday walking the new bit. During the next month, I only opened the doors on the wrong side once. (Honest Guv!). Before it opened at the south end, we had a 10mph speed limit on the old section as we passed through the step plate junction being built around us. Fascinating to see progress as it unfolded. The track was supported on timber baulks and rocked as you passed over it. I was a guard-motorman at the time so I got to drive through it quite regularly.

[roythebus]

What 45669 says about the rails from Drayton Park confirms what I heard when I worked at KX in that era.

I may have mentioned elsewhere that we had a miniature buffet car based there for use as a staff room when the line was being converted.

Also, all the original posters and signs remain behind the false walls built at places like Highbury & Islington. Pity I wasn't more into souvenir hunting at that time!