Piccadilly Line New Stock

[Chris M]

Jul 18, 2010 20:48:57 GMT norbitonflyer said:

If the doors are an issue, what about a mini-cascade - 1972 for the W&C, 1992 to IoW.

(Posted on the Met line board, but most likely meant to be posted here).

I've seen it said often on here that the City of London Corporation paid some of the cost towards the 1992 stock for the W&C and so their permission (and presumably some financial recompense) would be needed to replace them and I can't see that being an easy sell if the replacement trains are to be older than the 1992 stocks.

Also, having recently spent a large amount of money on a full refurb for the W&C 1992s I don't imagine TfL being eager to put their hands in their pockets to do the same for some 1972s. I suspect they'd demand (close to) 100% funding from SWT/DfT, including the considerable logistics costs in exchanging a fleet of trains via crane.
Then factor in the training time and costs so the Central Line t/ops can learn the second stock. And you've got to train (and possibly retool) the maintenance folk as wel - more money from the Island Line purse.

Then remember that this isn't a simple cascade from one LU line to another, and TfL will get no benefit from the units on the IOW. The purchase price will be higher as these aren't surplus stock that LU would otherwise just get scrap value for.

Now factor in that the 1972s you've put on the drain will need replacing around 20 years before the 1992s would have done (assuming a similar lifespan), so add in some compensation to TfL for those 20 years. Although this will be offset by the 1992s lasting longer on the Island than the 1972s, the trains will probably have a harder working life on the island than on the W&C (7 days a week for starters), exposure to the elements - including all the salt in the air between Ryde Esplanade and the pier head. Take into consideration what you know about the build quality of the 1992 stock on the Central Line, would you bet on the 1992s retiring 20 years later than the 1972s? I wouldn't.

All told I think this is less likely than any of the options I suggested (other than new bespoke stock).

[metman]

I don't see why adding cab doors to the 67/72ts would be impossible, although it may be costly?

....Or make the tunnel bigger and send some A stock there! ;D

[Chris M]

Jul 18, 2010 22:00:43 GMT metman said:

I don't see why adding cab doors to the 67/72ts would be impossible, although it may be costly?

Indeed, but I'm guessing less costly than new trains.

Jul 18, 2010 22:00:43 GMT metman said:

....Or make the tunnel bigger and send some A stock there! ;D

A four-car A-stock I suspect might be too long, given that they currently use two-car units of 1938 stock. Could the A's be modified to run as 2 or 3 car units?

[metman]

Maybe A stock could be made into 3 car units by moving some parts from one trailer to the other, it would be a busy underframe though!

I think the 67/72 doors would have to be swing doors.

[glom]

Would any new stock for the Piccadilly line be easily transferable to the Bakerloo line in case of a last minute change of thinking?

[etr220]

Jul 18, 2010 23:17:34 GMT Chris M said:

Jul 18, 2010 22:00:43 GMT metman said:

....Or make the tunnel bigger and send some A stock there! ;D

A four-car A-stock I suspect might be too long, given that they currently use two-car units of 1938 stock. Could the A's be modified to run as 2 or 3 car units?

Given that the 'standard stock' on the IoW ran as 7 cars (and in steam days 6 coaches was normal), I wouldn't have thought a 4 car A stock would present a problem, especially if you're having to enlarge the tunnel... And if if you're doing that, ordinary NR mainland stock would do.

[100andthirty]

A stock on the IOW is probably as far off the Piccadilly line New Stock topic as one can get.

However the main reason that tube stock is used on IOW is because of infrastructure clearance issues.

As A stock has the biggest profile on any train in the UK, it's use on the IOW might be a little - ahem - challenging!

[metman]

Indeed, hence my ;D!!

Coming nicely back onto the Piccadilly Stock......

I'm really not sure quite who is going to build these trains. Alsthom have had a few problems, Bombardier are fully booked and struggling, and Siemens have kept quiet! Maybe if Siemens do tender, we could get square tube trains!

Again the funding is a big issue, watch this space perhaps.......

[Chris M]

Perhaps Hitatchi would be interesting in expanding their foothold in the UK market, although I doubt that prjb would enjoy commuting backwards and forwards between London and Japan as often as he travels up to Derby for the S stock programme...
Closer to home, perhaps one of the European manufacturers would be interested?

[Ben]

I'd postulate that the pics new stock might come at a similar time for the northern lines split and extension; if either happen now with the ecconomic climate. The northern needing extra stock and requiring 58' cars would allow some synergy between the two projects, and save money by not requiring a new design to be proven.

[metman]

Unless, the Picc gets all the 95 stock and the new Northern gets the new stuff?

[SE13]

Jul 19, 2010 8:49:46 GMT glom said:

Would any new stock for the Piccadilly line be easily transferable to the Bakerloo line in case of a last minute change of thinking?

I'm fairly sure that the cars are too long. The 73's seem to be banned from almost everywhere.

Jul 18, 2010 22:00:43 GMT metman said:

I don't see why adding cab doors to the 67/72ts would be impossible, although it may be costly?

....Or make the tunnel bigger and send some A stock there! ;D

Oh dear! Why would the premium line want to lower itself to A stock ;D

[metman]

I'm A stock would be most suitable for the IOW, it may make 100 there!! ;D

I believe there are gauging issues on the Bakerloo, but I'd need someone more familiar with that line to confirm.

Would 6 1973 cars increase capacity over 7 1972 cars?

[Chris M]

Jul 20, 2010 18:26:00 GMT metman said:

Would 6 1973 cars increase capacity over 7 1972 cars?

According to the rolling stock pages on the TfL site, no, the total capacity of 7 1972 stock cars is 40 pax greater than the total that can be conveyed on a 6-car 1973 stock train:

	7 × 1972 stock cars	6 × 1973 stock cars
Total seating capacity	264	228 (+ 44 perch seats)
Total standing capacity	1014	966
Total train capacity	1278	1238

[metman]

Thanks Chris, that's what I would have expected!