Canary Wharf expansion !!!??

[Chris W]

I've come across THIS ARTICLE on The Independent new website today regarding about the Canary Wharf Group's perceived plan to double the size of Canary Wharf by 2021.

I know that we're still seven years away from Crossrail being operational (and a decade from this plan ever potentially coming to fruition), but I wonder if Crossrail will be able to cope into the future - what capacity for increasing services might there be.

Certainly the Docklands area has already expanded greatly since the late 80's and 1990's (and would be unrecognisable from the late 1970s). DLR services have expanded with longer trains and more regular services (not to mention the Jubilee extension and City airport)...

Obviously the Canary Wharf group would have number crunched the maximum capacity of transport routes/hubs, but there does come a time when capacity is reached without introducing another transport artery?!!

[cityboy]

Oh that's interesting. But I had to read it twice before I understood the figures fully. Canary Wharf Group own 6.9 millin sq ft of office space out of the current 15 million sq ft in the docklands. They want to add another 5 million sq ft by 2021, or a third of the current total space.

In terms of transport, yes, Docklands is an interesting case. I do think once Crossrail is fully operational, there is potential to run further trains west (not terminating at Paddington) and east via Canary Wharf thereby adding additional capacity. But the signalling and dwell times may be a limiting factor in running in excess of 24tph in rush.

[ianvisits]

The Wood Wharf development is a decade long project will expand the size of the docklands office space by about a third - and they have already contributed to the Crossrail funding.

It's worth noting that there is a difference between the land owned by Canary Wharf Group, and the docklands office space, so they can easily expand their holdings as announced, simply by buying up existing buildings.

[mikebuzz]

It's also interesting that the expansion is precisely because Crossrail is going ahead, or so it it claimed. Wood wharf is on the eastern side of the Isle of Dogs so 'Canary Wharf' will be big..

Upgrading the DLR or adding a heavy rail line beside it along some of the route and adding an eastern curve at Stepney Green to directly link Stratford to Canary Wharf can add extra capacity cheaply.

[lemmo]

I can't see Crossrail coping, given that the Jubilee is already at capacity.

Part of the problem is that Canary Wharf is one of two branches, so won't it max out at 12tph?

So what's the potential for DLR routes to be returned to heavy rail, either tube or mainline? This would provide more capacity, and improved interchange through the city.

And given that most traveling from the south have to go to London Bridge or Waterloo and change, what's the potential for a new north-south line up from the Bermondsey/New Cross area, up through Docklands and on to Stratford? This could add 12tph and bolt on to Crossrail at Canary Wharf...

[mikebuzz]

Hopefully doubling capacity by adding a short cheap curve between the xrail branches (might involve Stratford turn-backs) will go a long way to ease future overcrowding. What's the situation with east/south-east London depot facilities?

No stations between Stratford and Canary Wharf is gonna be pretty fast.

Tower Gateway to Poplar, All Saints to Stratford HL and Canning Town to Stratford are pretty much heavy rail, other routes could be converted I'm sure, but you won't have right-angled sections on the same route for heavy rail. 4 tracks along sections would be essential too given the spider-like branches of the DLR, and useful for straightening out alignments. You could keep the signalling etc.

The logical solution for Bermondsey/New Cross/Deptford via Canary Wharf to Stratford is to link up the LO from Clapham Junction to Surrey Canal Road with the DLR at Heron Keys (you could merge Canary and West India Quay into one station) and tunnel through under poplar to All Saints or to Crossharbour and on to All Saints. Then it's the existing route to Stratford HL. Personally I'd think about improving Stratford-All Saints-new section east of Canary Wharf-Crossharbour-Lewisham as one route and send the route from Surrey Canal via heron Quays and Poplar to Dagenham.

[ianvisits]

Sept 23, 2011 20:21:41 GMT lemmo said:

I can't see Crossrail coping, given that the Jubilee is already at capacity.

Don't forget that the Jubilee Line has two more capacity upgrades due that will add more capacity to the network.

[DWS]

Sept 24, 2011 8:05:51 GMT ianvisits said:

Sept 23, 2011 20:21:41 GMT lemmo said:

I can't see Crossrail coping, given that the Jubilee is already at capacity.

Don't forget that the Jubilee Line has two more capacity upgrades due that will add more capacity to the network.

Tell use more ?

[lemmo]

the Jubilee Line has two more capacity upgrades due that will add more capacity to the network.

Yes but it's partly a question of whether the increase in capacity is sufficient for projected future demand, given the future developments in and around Docklands.

And it's also about building in contingency for creating more capacity if needed. And that requires that options are identified and that alignments are safeguarded.

The area of greatest need is likely to be a north-south route, and this should probably go up through Wood Wharf. Is it too late to make provision for this now, or is the development well-advanced?

From there the route could join Crossrail up to Pudding Lane, or just as easily rise on the north side of the alignment and run from Stratford up the Lea Valley.

[jango]

what's this fascination with upgrading the DLR to heavy rail? Would that honestly be the most cost-effective way of increasing capacity? I don't think so.

The DLR is remarkably successful as it is. The latest TfL press release states that on Thursday 15th September that 340,000 people used the DLR (a record by the way).

If you stick to the DLR model, I think the best option to increase capacity at Canary Wharf for the DLR is to keep adding to the routes. Wood Wharf will need a local station of its own to be effective. It may be the best option to have a direct link between the Stratford link and Crossharbour. This alone would probably give you a route on which you can run 24 tph (from Stratford to Crossharbour) and probably wouldn't be particularly expensive.

I'm sure there would be other options similar to this which could be investigated.

In other news, I use the DLR frequently, and I think that it is one of the most convenient ways to travel. The stations are close together, the interchanges are good and the service is frequent. It's also pretty reliable. Remember in the snow last year when the DLR was pretty much the only thing still running?

[mrjrt]

My fascination is that you'd get more capacity by using conventional vehicles. The DLR is a great tram-alike that has a valid place weaving along streets and along twisty viaducts - not as an area's primary radial form of transport.

If I had my way the LO would run from Victoria Park to Nunhead via Poplar and Greenwich, interchanging at Poplar with the District line from Tower Hill to Grays via Dagenham Dock, Custom House & Beckton. I'd also be tempted to have sent the LO under the river from Woolwich and taken over the whole line to Deptford, with the New Cross LO branch diverted to meet it, and Crossrail being given the line east.

[jango]

fantasy

[mikebuzz]

Sept 24, 2011 14:05:43 GMT jango said:

what's this fascination with upgrading the DLR to heavy rail? Would that honestly be the most cost-effective way of increasing capacity? I don't think so.

The DLR is remarkably successful as it is. The latest TfL press release states that on Thursday 15th September that 340,000 people used the DLR (a record by the way).

If you stick to the DLR model, I think the best option to increase capacity at Canary Wharf for the DLR is to keep adding to the routes. Wood Wharf will need a local station of its own to be effective. It may be the best option to have a direct link between the Stratford link and Crossharbour. This alone would probably give you a route on which you can run 24 tph (from Stratford to Crossharbour) and probably wouldn't be particularly expensive.

I'm sure there would be other options similar to this which could be investigated.

In other news, I use the DLR frequently, and I think that it is one of the most convenient ways to travel. The stations are close together, the interchanges are good and the service is frequent. It's also pretty reliable. Remember in the snow last year when the DLR was pretty much the only thing still running?

A direct link between the Stratford link and Crossharbour is planned, it would make a huge difference to the working of the DLR IMO. It's not been high priority but I reckon it will be now.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the DLR, in fact I'm talking about adding route myself, but along existing route.

I think a rebuild could provide continued DLR routing and some sort of parallel metro service over the core sections in the Canary Wharf vicinity and out to Canning Town to both increase capacity massively and provide longer-distance journey alternatives hopefully at a fraction of the cost of swanky new tube lines through built up areas. The branches over existing heavy rail like that to Stratford HL wouldn't need any particular modification IMO.

Anyway, it's complicated and disruptive enough to be left alone here. We're certainly going off into fantasy, though the DLR has a reputation for expansion and upgrade has been mooted for the route before. It's for the RIPAS section for sure.

So is an eastern curve at Stepney for Crossrail, but I really think that could be value for money and only hope someone is reading this who can put a word in with those who have influence over such matters.

[jango]

yeah, I have to admit that I also think that a direct link between the Stratford and Canary Wharf branches of Crossrail would add value.

The main problem of Crossrail as currently planned will be that the Eastern branches have restricted capacity built in.

A curve at Stepney might be against the current ethos of routing everything through Central London, but there are countless people who travel in from the GEML to Stratford, and the additional benefits of resiliency of service and capacity would be good value.

[flippyff]

There was talk of Wood Wharf a few years back when I worked in the area. I do believe it included an additional route for the DLR but I can't recall if it went directly north from Limeharbour/Marsh Wall across Wood Wharf and then linked up with the original Stratford route or whether it was a bit more round the houses.

Looking at the Canary Wharf Group website, The dedicated Wood Wharf pages now return a 404 'Not found' error and their future projects page doesn't mention it.

Simon

{Edited to fix the numerous times I mis-spelt 'wharf'}