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Post by abe on Nov 17, 2011 8:43:46 GMT
But the CLR and BS&WR weren't in competition - they run at right-angles at Oxford Circus. They were separate companies, so built separate buildings. Do you complain when Starbucks and Costa open in separate buildings, rather than sharing?
Both buildings had lifts down to their respective lines. The CLR could have offered to modify its station to accommodate the BS&WR when that opened 6 years later, but it would not have benefited the CLR (more congested station and inconvenience for its passengers). More lifts would have been required anyhow, so the building would have needed to expand. So we ended up with two buildings across the street, rather than one building. Hardly a major problem, especially as the companies did cooperate in providing low-level interchange.
Not a waste, just an historical quirk. It's good that they've both survived.
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Nov 17, 2011 15:45:18 GMT
Don't the Bakerloo and Central lines currently have a joint ticket hall at Oxford Circus, or is that me?
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Post by stonesfan on Nov 17, 2011 17:23:50 GMT
Don't the Bakerloo and Central lines currently have a joint ticket hall at Oxford Circus, or is that me? Yes - the entrance/ticket hall underneath Oxford Circus itself was built in the 1960s in conjunction with the Victoria Line. The old entrances are now used for exit only. |
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Post by anthonyfendall on Feb 19, 2012 16:43:51 GMT
I agree that some period features were been lost in the ticket office area in the 80's but I just think more could have been to save the facade and shell possibly with re-modelling and using that extra space by the escalators. I don't. I think the new design is more spacious ("airy"). But that doesn't mean it had to be a soulless glass box. They could have built the exterior in the same style as the original, but just bigger. I don't get what this obsession is with the industrial look. And I hate this fatuous canard that only industrial buildings are modern; all buildings built now are modern, all living architects, still in work, are contemporary. |
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Post by anthonyfendall on Feb 19, 2012 16:48:03 GMT
This shows the plan of proposed new lift shaft and secondary exit stair shaft: tinyurl.com/cnyteygWhatever happened to that new shaft? Wasn't it meant to link up with the Overground ticket hall? The thing I never understood about it, though, was why it went to the existing central line platform concourse, and not to the east end of the platforms. There's some sort of fenced-off bridge there, right at the end, that goes up and into the north wall of the tunnel, over the line - couldn't they turn that into an entrance, or at least a MIP lift? |
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Post by rsdworker on Feb 19, 2012 19:56:05 GMT
wow that's shows they should installed for step free route in station - they need install it
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 3,624
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Post by Ben on Feb 20, 2012 6:41:53 GMT
I couldn't agree more!!! I really don't understand why modern architects are so set against pastiché or immitation. Instead even modest extensions to existing vintage buildings seemingly must be glass-and-steel, the excuse being it compliments it by contrasting the historic character within a contemporary frame and environment. Well thats bull! It happens because of lazy, sycophantic egotism; because ever since Le Corbusier (and later the brutalists) dictated that building design should be about how society should function in regard to buildings instead of the reverse, nobody cares about what people might actually enjoy or find reassuring aesthetically. Its all about what people are told that they should appreciate aesthetically by the designers, and thats mostly influenced by what the designers are educated to appreciate. Case and point being Camden Town's redevelopment. Look at these pictures of whats previously been proposed for the block: www.alwaystouchout.com/img/projects/camdentown3.jpgwww.alwaystouchout.com/img/projects/camdentown1.jpgGhastly and soulless. Touted as being a 'landmark' building, there seems to be no discernable difference between this and ten thousand other buildings like it the world over. Would Tower Bridge be such a landmark if there were over a hundred within the M25 at various scales? I doubt it. Now combine that with cheap finishes ("Look, its concrete and exposed steel 'I' beams! Isn't that terrifically marvelous and modern"), and it becomes even less. St Pancras Station still looked impressive, powerful and grand even after decades of neglect and dirt, and in the foulest of British weather. What does the South Bank centre look like on a bleak April morning in the rain, covered in grime and soot? If they wanted to push a development through on the site, take the most memorable facades there already and change the sizes/scales/repetition to suit the number of floors they want to build to. We have technology and materials now that architects from eras past could only dream of. Why should anyone feel ashamed of realising those dreams if people aren't willing to merely settle for somthing bland-yet-favoured by developers? Tourists don't come to London to see the skyscrapers, they come to visit it for its individual character and its history. Westminster Palace, the Globe, Buckingham Palace, St Pauls... [/rant]  |
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Post by deansullivan on Feb 20, 2012 10:21:15 GMT
At Shepherds Bush, the staircase and passageway at the East end of the platform leads to a fan shaft. This passageway passes under the Overground line and the West Cross Route to exit in a shaft just adjacent to the traffic lights on the Southbound carriageway. I used to check it every month when we carried out our planned monthly inspections.
Certainly at the point where it joins the platform the entrance is very narrow and unsuitable for non staff use.
However there is a disused lift shaft to the back of the station that would have been suitable. In the mid 90s LUL installed a fire escape staircase in this disused shaft. Unfortunately the design of the staircase did not meet safety standards and was never commissioned for use. The remaining lift shafts (I think there was three orginally) were severed decades ago when the escalators were installed. The base of one of these is used to pump out the gallons of water which seeps into the tunnels under the Caxton curve.
In common with most other stations on the network, excepting the safety space below the lift (approximately 10 feet) the lift shafts never actually reached platform level. So there would need to be some form of additional passageway and a secondary lift installed to reach platform level. Having done that of course, the space between the two platform barrels is very narrow, which would limit the ability to create additional passageways.
But personally having worked at Shepherds Bush many years back, I think the new layout is a far better than what went before! The new station has some very nice staff accommodation which replaced the damp and cold facilities that went before.
Dean
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Post by neutron on Feb 20, 2012 23:50:55 GMT
At Shepherds Bush, the staircase and passageway at the East end of the platform leads to a fan shaft. This passageway passes under the Overground line and the West Cross Route to exit in a shaft just adjacent to the traffic lights on the Southbound carriageway. I used to check it every month when we carried out our planned monthly inspections. In Video 125's "Central", the narrator says there's 4 pumps there, dealing with an underground stream nearby - is that correct? |
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slugabed
Zu lang am schnuller.
Posts: 1,363
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Post by slugabed on Feb 21, 2012 0:33:56 GMT
In Video 125's "Central", the narrator says there's 4 pumps there, dealing with an underground stream nearby - is that correct? Quite possibly. The WLL (next door to the tube) was built along the approximate route of the Counter's Creek which formed (still forms?) the boundary between Hammersmith and Fulham to the West and Kensington and Chelsea to the East. |
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Post by anthonyfendall on Feb 22, 2012 2:16:14 GMT
Certainly at the point where it joins the platform the entrance is very narrow and unsuitable for non staff use. Couldn't that be turned into a lift, with suitable walls, rather than just railings. Or do you mean the actual hole in the wall is narrow? Is there any reason it couldn't be widened? The space between the two platform barrels is very narrow, which would limit the ability to create additional passageways. But that space at the east end, where there isn't a wall between the platforms, couldn't a lift be shoved against the end of the wall? There's a lift (not in use yet) at Tottenham Court Road, shoved between platform walls - I know the walls were moved to fit it in, but the width it actually takes still doesn't seem that much? |
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Post by anthonyfendall on Feb 22, 2012 2:20:51 GMT
I really don't understand why modern architects are so set against pastiché or immitation. Its all about what people are told that they should appreciate aesthetically by the designers, and thats mostly influenced by what the designers are educated to appreciate. Case and point being Camden Town's redevelopment. Yes, but the problem isn't really the architects as such. Its the people who employ them, and let them get away with it. In your example, its whoever at TfL thought it would be acceptable to obliterate Camden's heritage, and aesthetic, and put some alien thing in that has no aesthetic connection to the average design of the area, and absolutely no connection to the architectural aesthetic tastes of the locals and their visitors. In my example, its the TfL person who thought a glass box was an acceptable replacement for one of the last old style Central Line buildings. |
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Post by deansullivan on Feb 22, 2012 10:36:12 GMT
From recollection the two platform tunnels are very close together and the platforms narrow. This created a particular problem with the circulating area around the base of the stairs which led to the Eastbound platform. As people tend to congregate at this spot.
At TCR on the Northern there was sufficient space to install a single escalator between the two platform tunnels, but at Shepherds Bush I would doubt it would be possible to install lifts without further compromising the width of the platform.
At the London end of the platforms (where the platforms were extended for 8 car trains), the platform barrels are so close that the extension was created by installing an island platform. Again this continues to taper down towards the platform ramp where the access to the fan shaft is.
It’s quite an eerie staircase to use when a westbound train is arriving. Because although your in a segregated cage, the train seems to pass quite close to the staircase. You also get blown all over the place! So on that basis I would suspect it would not be a good spot to install a lift.
However if you stand on the west-end of the Eastbound platform, you will notice the openings in the ceiling for the air to flow. Unlike the one at the east-end of the platform this links to the old lift shafts near the escalators. And they are at roughly the same diameter as a normal passageway. This passageway is clearly visible if you use the emergency staircase. Perhaps this could be used with a bridge to link over to the platform at some point.
But I would imagine that LUL would have considered all this anyway, and perhaps other engineering constraints prevent this happening.
Regarding the water seepage, I seem to recall that it was worse in the Westbound running tunnel. This is a fairly tight curve which runs under part of Caxton Road. This was the original tunnel into the CLR depot at White City/Wood Lane. The eastbound tunnel was a later addition when the line was extended to Wood Lane. In the westbound tunnel there is a small channel had been created to direct the water towards the pumps at Shepherds Bush. The water seepage is constant throughout the year. However on a couple of occasions the pumps failed and the pits in the station started to fill with water. Despite efforts to stop the seepage by grouting the tunnels the water continued relentless.
I also heard some comments that as a result of the decline of underground water extraction (partly as a result of the loss of industry who relied on underground wells), the water table has risen over the last 100 years. Which means that it probably cheaper to accept it as part of life and pump it away.
Adjacent to Westbound tracks in the old White City Depot was a large well (or perhaps more accurately a sump) which collected water from the tunnels before extracting it into the local sewers. I had the chance to go in there once and it’s not a visit I would like to repeat! It was warm and very humid. We stood over the sump on a kind of metal honeycomb surface. Below us you could hear the sound of rushing water and the noise from the pumps. Although I was with a pump engineer I was quite happy to get out.
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Post by neutron on Feb 23, 2012 23:56:17 GMT
Thanks for taking the time to write that all out, very interesting stuff  |
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Post by anthonyfendall on Feb 24, 2012 8:04:28 GMT
However if you stand on the west-end of the Eastbound platform, you will notice the openings in the ceiling for the air to flow. Unlike the one at the east-end of the platform this links to the old lift shafts near the escalators. But how do you get that to the platform, without blocking the platform - aren't the cross passages there really narrow? I also heard some comments that as a result of the decline of underground water extraction (partly as a result of the loss of industry who relied on underground wells), the water table has risen over the last 100 years. Perhaps they should replace the iron rings with concrete?, to waterproof the thing? They could perhaps widen them a bit, when they do that, so that the platform can be widened enough for a lift? |
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