Crossrail Canary Wharf going to Heathrow airport

[diana]

For once a question from the professional side of Aunty Dianas life.

We have been asked about going from our new Canary Wharf station being built in front of the office window to Heathrow Airport. Is the Heathrow Express train comeing all the way to Canary Wharf or will it go to Stratford or will it just go to Paddington like now. This is important because if you have to go all across Paddington station and then buy another ticket and maybe wait another 15 minutes for the next airport train to go it affects how long it all takes and that affects property valuation. Is there some official notice on the Internet I can get that says this and even better if it says how many minutes to Heathrow and how often the trains. A link to the official website where this is announced would be very good for us. So thank you.

[Burkitt]

The Crossrail official website has a journey time calculator on this page www.crossrail.co.uk/railway/train-service/#.T4V1ovsV2VF which shows the expected time between any two stations. Canary Wharf to Heathrow 123 will take 39 minutes and to Heathrow 4 will take 45 minutes.

[Deep Level]

Please note that Heathrow Express Trains will still terminate at Paddington and will not be using the Crossrail Line, Crossrail runs on it's own lines through London and will then replace what is now known as Heathrow Connect and run all stations to Heathrow Central, it will then run onto Heathrow Terminal 4 replacing the Heathrow Express T4 Shuttle. Train times will still be quite quick as Heathrow Connect is anyway (I think about 30 mins Paddington to Heathrow Central).

[Jibran32]

Apr 11, 2012 15:26:54 GMT Deep Level said:

Please note that Heathrow Express Trains will still terminate at Paddington and will not be using the Crossrail Line, Crossrail runs on it's own lines through London and will then replace what is now known as Heathrow Connect and run all stations to Heathrow Central, it will then run onto Heathrow Terminal 4 replacing the Heathrow Express T4 Shuttle. Train times will still be quite quick as Heathrow Connect is anyway (I think about 30 mins Paddington to Heathrow Central).

But what is going to happen to Heathrow Connects Class 360s?

[Uzair Siddiqi]

Apr 11, 2012 17:29:01 GMT Jibran32 said:

Apr 11, 2012 15:26:54 GMT Deep Level said:

Please note that Heathrow Express Trains will still terminate at Paddington and will not be using the Crossrail Line, Crossrail runs on it's own lines through London and will then replace what is now known as Heathrow Connect and run all stations to Heathrow Central, it will then run onto Heathrow Terminal 4 replacing the Heathrow Express T4 Shuttle. Train times will still be quite quick as Heathrow Connect is anyway (I think about 30 mins Paddington to Heathrow Central).

But what is going to happen to Heathrow Connects Class 360s?

I asked that question in a thread a few years ago. Not really sure what's happening with them. Personally I think there's a chance Greater Anglia could get them considering they also operate Class 360's.

[hollywood]

Looking at the Crossrail Timetabling page you can crunch the numbers thusly:

Of the peak 12 TPH Westbound from Canary Wharf, seven will end at Paddington while five continue further west

Of the peak ten TPH terminating at Heathrow, six will be ex-Paddington while four originate further east

Thus the presumptive possibility of an average of two TPH from Canary Wharf continuing to Heathrow--or at least a same-platform interchange in central London.

Of course all this assumes that each western terminus serves each eastern one in precise porportion to the proposed service levels and remains so even in off-peak hours. (Or is the service pattern more likely to be akin to the current DLR?)

[norbitonflyer]

Can you see HEx remaining viable after Crossrail is launched? So it will take 15 minutes less from Paddington to Heathrow, but that 15 minutes will easily be lost in changing at Paddington - on top of the transfer time, if you're unlucky and just miss one you'll spend 15 minutes just waiting for the next to leave. Except from the Marylebone Road/Euston Road area, with its direct Underground service to Paddington, Crossrail will provide a far better connection to Heathrow from most parts of central London.

(If I'm at Piccadilly Circus, for example, I can get the Picadilly line all the way, or change at Oxford Circus for Crossrail, or stay on the Bakerloo for five more stops and get the HeX from Paddington

[snoggle]

Apr 11, 2012 20:32:31 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Can you see HEx remaining viable after Crossrail is launched? So it will take 15 minutes less from Paddington to Heathrow, but that 15 minutes will easily be lost in changing at Paddington - on top of the transfer time, if you're unlucky and just miss one you'll spend 15 minutes just waiting for the next to leave. Except from the Marylebone Road/Euston Road area, with its direct Underground service to Paddington, Crossrail will provide a far better connection to Heathrow from most parts of central London.

(If I'm at Piccadilly Circus, for example, I can get the Picadilly line all the way, or change at Oxford Circus for Crossrail, or stay on the Bakerloo for five more stops and get the HeX from Paddington

It's my understanding that there is no link between Oxford Circus LU and Crossrail's eastern ticket hall (Hanover Sq) at Bond Street. You'd have to exit to street level, walk and then re-enter. I'd not consider doing that if laden with luggage or pressed for time!

[snoggle]

Apr 11, 2012 19:12:16 GMT hollywood said:

Looking at the Crossrail Timetabling page you can crunch the numbers thusly:

Of the peak 12 TPH Westbound from Canary Wharf, seven will end at Paddington while five continue further west

Of the peak ten TPH terminating at Heathrow, six will be ex-Paddington while four originate further east

Thus the presumptive possibility of an average of two TPH from Canary Wharf continuing to Heathrow--or at least a same-platform interchange in central London.

Of course all this assumes that each western terminus serves each eastern one in precise porportion to the proposed service levels and remains so even in off-peak hours. (Or is the service pattern more likely to be akin to the current DLR?)

I would be very surprised to see 2 tph from Canary Wharf to Heathrow. TfL's minimum spec is usually 4 tph and I'd expect the emphasis for Heathrow services would be to serve the Canary Wharf branch thus ensuring direct, frequent services from Heathrow to the City and then to Canary Wharf.

The info on the Crossrail page does throw up some interesting questions as to exactly what the service pattern will be from the east to beyond Paddington. My guess is 4 tph Shenfield - Maidenhead, 8 tph Shenfield - Paddington, 4 tph Abbey Wood - Heathrow, 2 tph Abbey Wood - West Drayton and 6 tph Abbey Wood - Paddington. The detrainment process at Paddington is going to have to be extremely slick in order to turn 14 tph in the peak. How many platforms are there at Paddington Crossrail?

[diana]

Thank you everyone because this has given all sorts of work to the analysts in the office and there have been comments about "train-spotters", I am sure all of you could have helped to work it out much quicker.

[DrOne]

Apr 11, 2012 22:45:02 GMT snoggle said:

The detrainment process at Paddington is going to have to be extremely slick in order to turn 14 tph in the peak. How many platforms are there at Paddington Crossrail?

Good point, detraining 14tph onto already-busy platforms full of people waiting for onward trains will be interesting. How long before those terminators are extended onto the WCML slow lines?

Apr 11, 2012 17:29:01 GMT Jibran32 said:

But what is going to happen to Heathrow Connects Class 360s?

As has been said, they may well join the Greater Anglia franchise. By that point a wider reshuffle plan should have sorted the displaced 365s from FCC, 350s from LM and 360s from Heathrow Connect and maybe even displaced 332s if HEx no longer runs.

[lemmo]

detraining 14tph onto already-busy platforms full of people waiting for onward trains will be interesting. How long before those terminators are extended onto the WCML slow lines?

Paddington could indeed become the bottleneck on Crossrail, similar to Blackfriars on Thameslink, and this may determine how resilient the service pattern is to disruptions and overcrowding. Some people may wait for their correct train, or change at one of the stations before Paddington. The question is whether two branches at the western end will improve operational capacity and resilience.

I can't believe that there is not sufficient demand for intensive Crossrail services in west London. A link to the WCML comes with an expensive price tag, £500 million from memory, and with no real advantage in terms of proposed HS2 works at Euston. Running onto the Chiltern lines at Old Oak Common is another option, and did Crossrail ever explore the option of Hounslow via Acton?

Another option is to reverse at Old Oak Common, leaving the Paddington reversal for contingencies. This makes sense if a major new interchange is built here.

In terms of operations and the design of Crossrail west of Paddington, the first junction west will have to be grade-separated, and this will have to be factored into the design. Am I correct in assuming that all Paddington terminators from the west will now come from the Fast GW mainlines? There is no grade-separated junction west of Paddington from the Crossrail/Slow lines to take Paddington trains...

[andypurk]

Apr 12, 2012 22:56:06 GMT DrOne said:

Apr 11, 2012 22:45:02 GMT snoggle said:

The detrainment process at Paddington is going to have to be extremely slick in order to turn 14 tph in the peak. How many platforms are there at Paddington Crossrail?

Good point, detraining 14tph onto already-busy platforms full of people waiting for onward trains will be interesting. How long before those terminators are extended onto the WCML slow lines?

I suppose that this will depend on how many people just take the first train and need to change at Paddington and how many will have waited for a train to their destination. The platforms will be much wider than most existing platforms, so should be able to cope. I seem to recall that the trains will run to a site at Westbourne Park for the actual reversal and I doubt that checking the trains are empty will be needed for the operation.

Apr 11, 2012 17:29:01 GMT Jibran32 said:

But what is going to happen to Heathrow Connects Class 360s?

As has been said, they may well join the Greater Anglia franchise. By that point a wider reshuffle plan should have sorted the displaced 365s from FCC, 350s from LM and 360s from Heathrow Connect and maybe even displaced 332s if HEx no longer runs.

Why would the class 350s be leaving LM?

[stephenk]

Apparently trains will be allowed to take passengers into the reversing sidings if they do not alight at Paddington. This is designed to keep things moving.

There are time limits on high long a passenger can stay in the sidings. It is likely that passengers can be removed from trains in the sidings as well - ? lift access.

[snoggle]

Apr 13, 2012 9:15:01 GMT stephenk said:

Apparently trains will be allowed to take passengers into the reversing sidings if they do not alight at Paddington. This is designed to keep things moving.

There are time limits on high long a passenger can stay in the sidings. It is likely that passengers can be removed from trains in the sidings as well - ? lift access.

I hope Crossrail have got that concept cleared with the regulators and stakeholder groups including those representing disabled passengers. It is the sort of issue where you only need one instance of someone, with access to the media, being "trapped" on a train for the concept to go out of the window very quickly.

I find it very surprising that the plans assume that people can override to sidings. Surely there will be trains at the peak shoulders / end of traffic that will leave Paddington "empty" to stable rather than turn round? Are those trains going to be cleared by staff at Paddington? I know it's 6 years away but I hope Crossrail have got some operational reps working on their team so this stuff is done properly!