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Post by mappman1000 on Apr 13, 2012 15:21:06 GMT
Looking at the route and stops of CrossRail in East London, the flow of passengers in the area will be altered. At the moment, most central London destined District Line passengers will use the cross platform facility at Mile End, and take the Central Line to the shopping streets of Oxford Circus. Because of the lack of a stop at Oxford Circus, which is the premier stop for shoppers, I don't think passengers are going to make use of CrossRail for these sorts of trips, because it would involve changing at Whitechapel on the District Line, and then again at Tottenham Court Road. For general central London passengers, such as to Tottenham Ct Rd and Bond Street, I wonder if people will stay on the District Line to Whitechapel, and change there for CrossRail, or continue to change at Mile End. I'm not sure what the platform arrangements will be at Whitechapel, but I'd assume a change at Mile End is much easier. I'm also wondering whether Hammermsith & City Libe passengers will switch to CrossRail, or just stay on the train as it involves less walking.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 13, 2012 15:44:43 GMT
Because of the lack of a stop at Oxford Circus, which is the premier stop for shoppers, I don't think passengers are going to make use of CrossRail for these sorts of trips, There will be a Crossrail exit at Oxford Circus, in Hanover Square (although it is called the eastern exit to Bond Street). Surely anyone wanting he Oxford Circus area would use that, rather than change at Liverpool Street, unless they actually want to interchange to the Vic or Bakerloo? And the western entrance of TCR will not be much further away. |
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Post by andypurk on Apr 13, 2012 16:19:01 GMT
Apparently trains will be allowed to take passengers into the reversing sidings if they do not alight at Paddington. This is designed to keep things moving. There are time limits on high long a passenger can stay in the sidings. It is likely that passengers can be removed from trains in the sidings as well - ? lift access. I hope Crossrail have got that concept cleared with the regulators and stakeholder groups including those representing disabled passengers. It is the sort of issue where you only need one instance of someone, with access to the media, being "trapped" on a train for the concept to go out of the window very quickly.  I find it very surprising that the plans assume that people can override to sidings. Surely there will be trains at the peak shoulders / end of traffic that will leave Paddington "empty" to stable rather than turn round? Are those trains going to be cleared by staff at Paddington? I know it's 6 years away but I hope Crossrail have got some operational reps working on their team so this stuff is done properly!  Why the big surprise? Just recently, LU have altered their policy of checking each carriage is empty before trains enter sidings. Service reliability on the Bakerloo / LO at Harrow & Wealdstone seems to have benefited from this. I doubt that plans include purposely carrying passengers into the sidings, but allow for them to be accidentally carried in if they don't get off when asked. Somewhere, I did see mention of platforms at the reversal point, but can't remember if they were just speculation or not. Checking shoulder peak trains are empty is another matter, but they would not generally be heading for the same sidings. It would be perfectly possible to diagram such trains to run empty from reversal points where there are platforms. |
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Post by diana on Apr 13, 2012 17:06:53 GMT
We didn't understand from all these discussions why there are so many trains on the Crossrail line being stopped at Paddington which seems to make problems, and there are the Express trains to Heathrow which are all beginning from Paddington, why are they not just connected, lots of people from the airport will be going on from Paddington into the middle of London and to Canary Wharf, because I think that some trains will do this but not many, surely these will all be full up.
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
Posts: 827
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Post by castlebar on Apr 13, 2012 17:11:00 GMT
No joined up railway = No joined up thinking
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Post by Uzair Siddiqi on Apr 13, 2012 18:45:07 GMT
andypurk - From a diagram I have of the track layout for when Crossrail opens, it does look like there are platforms at the sidings.
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Post by venice on Apr 13, 2012 18:57:01 GMT
from 2011 RUS London and South East
option 5 includes
"To free up the capacity necessary to operate the above increased main line service level the
existing Heathrow Express service would be replaced by a significantly increased Heathrow
Airport to Crossrail service (10tph rather than 4tph as currently planned), all of which would
run, at peak times, on the relief lines. At peak times the Heathrow Airport services would
need to be skip-stop to maximise relief lines capacity overall, whilst in the off-peak four trains
per hour could run non-stop on the main lines."
"The resulting peak 16tph Crossrail service pattern has been assumed to be as follows, though
other variations may exist:
• 8tph Heathrow Airport Terminal 5 (running limited stop on the relief lines)
• 2tph Heathrow Airport Terminal 4 (running skip-stop on the relief lines)
In the off-peak the RUS anticipates that a 4tph Crossrail non-stop service to Heathrow
Airport would run on the main lines. This would allow sufficient capacity on the relief lines for
freight paths and would minimise the London – Heathrow Airport journey time"
"Conclusion
This option appears likely to be required for implementation in the mid 2020s to respond to
crowding from the outer Thames Valley.
It would broadly resolve the GWML capacity gap and improve journey opportunities to
Heathrow in many aspects, but certain groups of airline travellers may be adversely affected.
Further development is recommended."
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Post by snoggle on Apr 13, 2012 19:03:32 GMT
We didn't understand from all these discussions why there are so many trains on the Crossrail line being stopped at Paddington which seems to make problems, and there are the Express trains to Heathrow which are all beginning from Paddington, why are they not just connected, lots of people from the airport will be going on from Paddington into the middle of London and to Canary Wharf, because I think that some trains will do this but not many, surely these will all be full up. It's simple enough - BAA run Heathrow Express as a premium express service and charge premium fares. They also don't have intermediate stops in order to keep fares high and speeds high. They are a private operator who will almost certainly want to remain completely seperate from Crossrail. They will also want to keep making profits without the distraction of linking to Crossrail or being lumbered with extra costs from running in the Crossrail tunnels. I can't see them wanting to serve Abbey Wood or Shenfield Crossrail will be a separate franchise / concession controlled by TfL which will run to rather different objectives plus there will be lots of intermediate stops. The heathrow trains will run in the current Heathrow Connect (stopping, cheaper) service. What I am waiting to see is what fares get charged to Heathrow on Crossrail and whether Oyster will be accepted. There are some real challenges in how the fares issue gets resolved. I see from Venice's post that the L&SE RUS postulates a rather different situation about 5 years after Crossrail opens. Interesting. It is my understanding that it is the pattern of demand that has determined that many trains will terminate at Paddington. The existence of services into the main line station has already been factored in. The flows via Stratford and Canary Wharf are high and well established. I also think the service from Abbey Wood and Woolwich will become very popular very quickly given the good direct access into the City and West End. If you believe people's comments there is a long standing weariness with train services on South Eastern so a nice shiny frequent service on Crossrail will be far more attractive - provided it's reliable of course ;D |
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Post by Guest on Apr 13, 2012 19:06:56 GMT
Looking at the Crossrail Timetabling page you can crunch the numbers thusly: Of the peak 12 TPH Westbound from Canary Wharf, seven will end at Paddington while five continue further west Of the peak ten TPH terminating at Heathrow, six will be ex-Paddington while four originate further east Thus the presumptive possibility of an average of two TPH from Canary Wharf continuing to Heathrow--or at least a same-platform interchange in central London. Of course all this assumes that each western terminus serves each eastern one in precise porportion to the proposed service levels and remains so even in off-peak hours. (Or is the service pattern more likely to be akin to the current DLR?) I'd interpret it differently..Yes, seven from each eastern terminus will end at Paddington. This leaves us with 10 trains an hour to play with (5 from eacfh terminus), with 10 an hour from Heathrow, 4 from Maidenhead and two from West Drayton, or 5 2 and 1. I'd expect them to terminate the Maidenhead and West Drayton trains at Paddington (incredibly stupid in my opinion) and run all trains from the east beyond Paddington to Heathrow. |
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Post by DrOne on Apr 21, 2012 10:08:19 GMT
Why would the class 350s be leaving LM? If Crossrail were to take over the WCML Watford/Tring/Milton Keynes services I'd expect some displacement of stock from LM unless the plan was to use existing stock. |
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Post by mappman1000 on Apr 21, 2012 10:15:43 GMT
Why would the class 350s be leaving LM? If Crossrail were to take over the WCML Watford/Tring/Milton Keynes services I'd expect some displacement of stock from LM unless the plan was to use existing stock. Not quite sure why crossrail needs to take over that. Much like the fact that tfl seem to want to have a monopoly over London Suburban rail services via LOROL. |
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Post by andypurk on Apr 21, 2012 12:27:30 GMT
Why would the class 350s be leaving LM? If Crossrail were to take over the WCML Watford/Tring/Milton Keynes services I'd expect some displacement of stock from LM unless the plan was to use existing stock. I doubt that there would be much displacement of 350s from LM, if the expected growth in passenger numbers continues. The class 321s would probably go at last, but the class 350s would be displaced onto services further north and on lengthening the peak extras into Euston, which will still be needed. |
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Post by andypurk on Apr 21, 2012 12:30:07 GMT
If Crossrail were to take over the WCML Watford/Tring/Milton Keynes services I'd expect some displacement of stock from LM unless the plan was to use existing stock. Not quite sure why crossrail needs to take over that. Much like the fact that tfl seem to want to have a monopoly over London Suburban rail services via LOROL. The capacity at Euston is needed for the HS2 rebuild and later for HS2 services, so some LM services will need to be displaced somewhere. |
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Post by grahamhewett on May 2, 2012 16:54:30 GMT
Interestingly, the bidders for the GW franchise are being asked how they propose to integrate HEX into their service plan.
To pick up DrOne's point, the basic problem with CrossRail from BR's point of view was that it linked the "wrong" London termini. Liverpool Street handles approximately twice as many vehicles in the peaks as Paddington, and the last three decades of planning for CrossRail have been dominated by a scrabble to find enough western traffic to balance the flows. Hence schemes to (a) take over the Met outers, (b) the Euston outers, and (c) the Wycombes to supplement what is available at Paddington. Liverpool Street to Waterloo would have killed many more useful birds. However, the origin of CrossRail was to relieve loadings on the Central so Paddington it was.
Graham H
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mrfs42
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Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,694
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Post by mrfs42 on May 2, 2012 18:22:31 GMT
Interestingly, the bidders for the GW franchise are being asked how they propose to integrate HEX into their service plan. Might that be because of a conflict with the obligatory paths..... |
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