Elephant & Castle stabling sidings

[Deleted]

Why are the last Bakerloo Line trains parked in the stabling sidings south of Elephant & Castle station instead of being stabled in the platforms or at the London Rd Depot?

The Waterloo & City line trains get stabled on the platform at Waterloo sometimes. Wouldn't it be easier for the drivers to stable them there instead of trekking through the tunnel?

[metman]

Not sure but if the train failed to start in the morning it would be disastrous for the service.

[Deleted]

Is there a train crew depot at the elephant?

[crusty54]

Aug 30, 2013 20:40:11 GMT @pritpal said:

Why are the last Bakerloo Line trains parked in the stabling sidings south of Elephant & Castle station instead of being stabled in the platforms or at the London Rd Depot?

The Waterloo & City line trains get stabled on the platform at Waterloo sometimes. Wouldn't it be easier for the drivers to stable them there instead of trekking through the tunnel?

One train is always stabled in a platform at Elephant & Castle

Usually platform 3 except on Sundays.

[DWS]

Aug 30, 2013 22:20:05 GMT nickg said:

Is there a train crew depot at the elephant?

Yes there is a train crew depot at Elephant & Castle.

[Deleted]

Simply put - service requirements. Thirteen trains start from the south end of the line in the morning. With ten starting up from London Road Depot (from eleven roads available - one being kept vacant for Engineers Trains, Defective Units etc) and two platforms at the Elephant, one train at least has to start up from the sidings. Monday to Friday has trains start up from both sidings with one from the platform, Weekends both platforms are occupied overnight. Friday night the regular duty puts train 252 in the sidings and another duty has a little Friday-only add on to pull it back out onto the platform once the last train has gone. Saturday night the Driver that brings 252 down from Stonebridge Depot puts it in the siding and then stays on it, in the siding, pulling it back out when the last train has gone. FYI Train Crew Depot at the Elephant has just under 100 Drivers.

[Deleted]

Also, you can't change the advertising posters if a train is parked in the platform.

[rsdworker]

Sept 1, 2013 9:27:22 GMT @stephenk said:

Also, you can't change the advertising posters if a train is parked in the platform.

well if advertising postors needs changed - the train can be moved back in sidings for while

[railtechnician]

Sept 1, 2013 9:27:22 GMT @stephenk said:

Also, you can't change the advertising posters if a train is parked in the platform.

There's a whole heap of work that can't be done with trains stabled in platforms! Of course when we were resignalling the Bakerloo in the late 1980s they had to find somewhere else to put them every night because we were working in the platforms and the sidings.
I can recall when I was renewing the tunnel telephones and local T/T cabling some time afterward when the trains were stabled in the platforms. I needed access to the southbound platform track area one night and made a local arrangement with the controller the night before to park the train, that was to be stabled there, elsewhere. He made arrangements to have it stabled in the sidings which were otherwise empty. So on the night I was working in the platform running cable but I didn't know where the train had been stabled, assuming the sidings were normally always occupied, as a chap approached to have a word. "Would you believe it, I'm supposed to be working in the sidings and made arrangements with the controller last week to leave them empty but there's a train in the Southbound"! He was not amused when I told him that I had, had the train shifted from the platform but I couldn't help laughing over it. I have no doubt that similar disappointments occur to this day even though SABRE was invented last decade to formalise and coordinate arrangements for all planned works in engineering hours.

[Deleted]

We have it all the time especially with trains being outstabled I won't mention any of the locations here. And to be honest unless its planned or a dire emergency they won't move them and even when you do arrange it sometimes you get " I forgot to inform the signaller " " the programme machine was in the wrong mode " just lame excuses to be honest.

[railtechnician]

Sept 14, 2013 23:18:52 GMT @aetearlscourt said:

We have it all the time especially with trains being outstabled I won't mention any of the locations here. And to be honest unless its planned or a dire emergency they won't move them and even when you do arrange it sometimes you get " I forgot to inform the signaller " " the programme machine was in the wrong mode " just lame excuses to be honest.

IMHO there should never be any clash situations in engineering hours except in extreme emergency and much of the potential of SABRE to make life simpler for all engineering installation and maintenance staff and contractors was lost by not having suitably qualified and experienced works planners within the track access organisation who fully understood the relationships between the engineering requirements and tasks of different disciplines and how they did or did not impact upon one another.
I know the operating department owns the railway but even so it should not be running trains in engineering hours which which impact upon works planned months in advance just because of an incident earlier in the day. No doubt operating would argue that say a signal failure in the morning rush hour would have a knock effect to services accumulating throughout the day leaving trains at the wrong end of the line, running out of turn etc causing otherwise unaffected services to be curtailed for other reasons such as inevitable late train pickup, crews stranded in the wrong place or due to go off duty before completing a rounder etc.
Having to move trains outside traffic hours in order to rebalance, as far as is possible, depot fleet levels in order to maintain mandatory rolling stock inspections and provide the next day's services are not really valid reasons for destroying the first hour or two of engineering hours unless the situation is the result of an incident occuring late in the timetable.
The loss of engineering maintenance and inspection work due to the reduction of engineering hours often has a much greater knock on effect lasting days or weeks due to having to plan such work three or more months in advance. Such can thus have an ongoing effect upon the reliability of future passenger services, an unseen and perhaps unappreciated result of fighting to 'regain service' following an incident.
Of course there is a financial cost too, not just the actual and potential loss of revenue but the cost of paying hundreds of people to do nothing due to lost time events over the course of year and the additional unplanned costs of paying some people to work additional hours at premium rates to complete essential tasks etc.

I doubt that service controllers give any thought to the difference that compliance with a simple request not to leave a train in a particular place on a particular shift makes apart from the effect it has upon the following day's services.

[crusty54]

my firm needs to clean the air conditioning condensers at high level on platform 3 every Sunday night. This is the night when the train stables on platform 4. If this doesn't happen an important room overheats within a couple of days and service disruption can result.

Despite our SABRE bookings access goes wrong 4/5 times per year.

[Deleted]

"Having to move trains outside traffic hours in order to ....provide the next day's services are not really valid reasons for destroying the first hour or two of engineering hours unless the situation is the result of an incident occuring late in the timetable. "

Wow. The job of the underground is to provide a service to its customers. If engineering has to be postponed or delayed then it's unfortunate (except safety critical stuff that absolutely can't be postponed 24 hours - unlikely). I can understand that it may be very frustrating but you must bear in mind the big picture. The reason the underground exists is to "provide the next day's service".

[railtechnician]

Sept 20, 2013 0:03:16 GMT @banana9989 said:

"Having to move trains outside traffic hours in order to ....provide the next day's services are not really valid reasons for destroying the first hour or two of engineering hours unless the situation is the result of an incident occuring late in the timetable. "

Wow. The job of the underground is to provide a service to its customers. If engineering has to be postponed or delayed then it's unfortunate (except safety critical stuff that absolutely can't be postponed 24 hours - unlikely). I can understand that it may be very frustrating but you must bear in mind the big picture. The reason the underground exists is to "provide the next day's service".

There is nothing whatsoever that cannot be postponed (just look how many trains were cancelled during the Jubilee line upgrade), however, all incursions into engineering hours will affect planned works to a greater or lesser extent and will cost additional monies to be spent for nothing. I doubt that engineering staff are frustrated by being unable to work as they still get paid whether they are able to carry out the planned works or not and it is not easy to find alternative useful work at short notice to offset any financial loss especially as the vast majority of work has to be planned and booked months in advance. The sum result is that eventually the loss of engineering hours will effect passenger service one way or another although that fact is unseen by most.

The upshot is a poorer service to the passenger and higher fares for the enjoyment of that privilege and THAT is the BIGGER picture !!!!

[Deleted]

The only time we get to cancel a engineers train or a special train i.e stock moves or test train running is if someone will impact the service the next day. Regarding these S stock test runs sometimes they are at short notice (on the night) and we get no prior warning until at least 22:00 on the night so planning works is very hard especially on Tuesday's and Thursday's when the majority of them operate.

[railtechnician]

Sept 21, 2013 17:23:37 GMT @aetearlscourt said:

The only time we get to cancel a engineers train or a special train i.e stock moves or test train running is if someone will impact the service the next day. Regarding these S stock test runs sometimes they are at short notice (on the night) and we get no prior warning until at least 22:00 on the night so planning works is very hard especially on Tuesday's and Thursday's when the majority of them operate.

London is a continuously developing city as it has been for centuries and despite past attempts to relieve congestion by encouraging businesses to move out of the square mile to new towns since WW2, redevelopment has only encouraged denser concentration of office space into the same space. The Underground has been playing catch up since the 1960s but always too little too late in my view. As London sprawl creates ever more suburbs and the city continues to be the business capital of the UK loading on the Underground and Overground networks will continue to increase at an ever increasing rate.

In my view there are only two possible solutions to the capital's rail congestion problems; (a) encourage businesses to leave the city of London again and turn the area into something else, a leisure park would be wonderful! There are many reasons why that cannot and will never happen. (b) improve rail transport further in such a way as to permanently relieve congestion.

Either way TfL is between a rock and a hard place, i.e. if businesses no longer existed in the square mile the number of commuters would diminish to a point where running services may mean running at a loss. On the other hand the pressure for improved services continues to grow to a point where the only answer is to provide 365/24/7 services for a city that never sleeps as the capital is fast becoming.

Thus the possible solution would seem to resolve to triple or quad tracking and bi-di signalling all existing Underground lines to enable round the clock services and round the clock maintenance.

[Deleted]

Sept 23, 2013 0:53:55 GMT railtechnician said:

Sept 21, 2013 17:23:37 GMT @aetearlscourt said:

The only time we get to cancel a engineers train or a special train i.e stock moves or test train running is if someone will impact the service the next day. Regarding these S stock test runs sometimes they are at short notice (on the night) and we get no prior warning until at least 22:00 on the night so planning works is very hard especially on Tuesday's and Thursday's when the majority of them operate.

London is a continuously developing city as it has been for centuries and despite past attempts to relieve congestion by encouraging businesses to move out of the square mile to new towns since WW2, redevelopment has only encouraged denser concentration of office space into the same space. The Underground has been playing catch up since the 1960s but always too little too late in my view. As London sprawl creates ever more suburbs and the city continues to be the business capital of the UK loading on the Underground and Overground networks will continue to increase at an ever increasing rate.

In my view there are only two possible solutions to the capital's rail congestion problems; (a) encourage businesses to leave the city of London again and turn the area into something else, a leisure park would be wonderful! There are many reasons why that cannot and will never happen. (b) improve rail transport further in such a way as to permanently relieve congestion.

Either way TfL is between a rock and a hard place, i.e. if businesses no longer existed in the square mile the number of commuters would diminish to a point where running services may mean running at a loss. On the other hand the pressure for improved services continues to grow to a point where the only answer is to provide 365/24/7 services for a city that never sleeps as the capital is fast becoming.

Thus the possible solution would seem to resolve to triple or quad tracking and bi-di signalling all existing Underground lines to enable round the clock services and round the clock maintenance.

I think we need a tube extension program of the scale that happened 1890-1940 but within say 20 years- Crossrail 1&2 should be happening simultaneously IMO!

Don't forget that there's a lot of off-peak demand, which could be increased even further with an expansion of the CC !