class411
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Post by class411 on Mar 21, 2014 19:24:48 GMT
Sorry if this is off topic (for the whole site, not just the forum) but there was such a lot of detailed bus knowledge displayed on the 'London now and then' thread I thought someone might be able to answer this question.
What went wrong with the massive routemaster servicing/overhaul depot?
I remember seeing a publicity film about this shortly after it was opened - it all looked very impressive.
Never heard any more about it (which is not surprising) until it started being mentioned on documentaries - but only the fact that it had failed and closed down (well before the demise of the routemasters themselves).
I could never understand how such an entity could fail. There were routemasters and they would need maintenance and overhaul. How could a specialist depot designed to accomplish this in a highly streamlined and efficient manner just be allowed to fail and disappear? How and where was the work carried out if not there?
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Post by John Tuthill on Mar 21, 2014 19:34:43 GMT
Sorry if this is off topic (for the whole site, not just the forum) but there was such a lot of detailed bus knowledge displayed on the 'London now and then' thread I thought someone might be able to answer this question. What went wrong with the massive routemaster servicing/overhaul depot? I remember seeing a publicity film about this shortly after it was opened - it all looked very impressive. Never heard any more about it (which is not surprising) until it started being mentioned on documentaries - but only the fact that it had failed and closed down (well before the demise of the routemasters themselves). I could never understand how such an entity could fail. There were routemasters and they would need maintenance and overhaul. How could a specialist depot designed to accomplish this in a highly streamlined and efficient manner just be allowed to fail and disappear? How and where was the work carried out if not there? If you are referring to Aldenham Works, two of the reasons I've read were: 1) later bus designs were of integral construction, making the maintenance as was of separating the body from the chassis time consuming. I think it was piloted using a SMS and a DMs. 2) with the break up of LT into separate companies that was the death blow. It has been written that it never realised its full capacity as bus travel fell off after the bus strike in the late 50's. The RM as per all previous buses did not have a chassis, but two sub frames, referred to as 'wheelbarrows' by those who worked on them, these being bolted to the integral body shell. |
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Post by grahamhewett on Mar 21, 2014 20:15:49 GMT
@class 413 - a small addition to what John has said. LT policy was to go for as much standardisation as possible (hence the very large fleets such as the RT family with interchangeable parts); the pay off was reduced maintenance costs, and greatly extended vehicle life. Vehicles going into Aldenham were completely dismantled and rebuilt - to the point where, famously, you could end up with two vehicles with the same stock numbers sitting side by side - one going in and one coming out of overhaul (to the despair of bus spotters...). Typically, this extended vehicle life from about 12-15 years to about 20-25 (even more for the RMs). Whether it was financially a good deal is unclear. By the accounting and engineering standards of the '80s, probably not, but these days, with whole life costing, Aldenham may have been on to a good thing. Possibly the modern equivalent would be gutting the vehicle shell completely and renewing all the detachable parts (as in the rail industry)
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Post by crusty54 on Mar 21, 2014 20:49:27 GMT
The latest issue of Buses magazine has a letter which explains why Aldenham closed.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 21, 2014 22:54:55 GMT
What went wrong with the massive routemaster servicing/overhaul depot? Never heard any more about it (which is not surprising) until it started being mentioned on documentaries - but only the fact that it had failed and closed down (well before the demise of the routemasters themselves).. It finally closed in 1986, by which time the Routemaster fleet was very much diminished. although after London Country was transferred to the national Bus Company in 1970 it never worked at full capacity. later bus designs were of integral construction, making the maintenance as was of separating the body from the chassis time consuming.. On the contrary , the problem with DMSs and later buses was that the the body distorted if removed from its chassis, because it was NOT of integral construction. The RM was closer to being of integral construction, with a rigid body suspended between the two subframes. ("wheelbarrows"). And a true integral like the Titan (introduced in 1978) had no separate chassis to be removed from! Vehicles going into Aldenham were completely dismantled and rebuilt - to the point where, famously, you could end up with two vehicles with the same stock numbers sitting side by side - one going in and one coming out of overhaul (to the despair of bus spotters...) As bodies took longer to overhaul than chassis (mainly because paint takes time to dry) LT actually had more bus bodies than chassis, and it was quite normal for a body to be outshopped on a different chassis to the one it went in on. The fleet number and registration number went with the chassis. I'm not sure that would be allowed under current DVLA rules - there are a minimum number of components that have to be carried over for a vehicle to keep its registration - otherwise it counts as a "bitzer" (bitzer this, bitzer that!) and gets a Q plate. This practice also meant that it was almost impossible to recognise a bus by the minor variations - for example the illuminated adverts applied to later RM bodies could turn up on some of the "oldest" VLT-registered vehicles, whilst the earliest bodies without ventilators in the front windows could appear on later "B" and "C"-suffix registered ones. Oh, and it is very much on topic for a tube site - the facility was not built as a bus overhaul depot at all. It was to have been the main depot for the Northern Line: only one small problem: after the depot had been completed, construction of the extension to Aldenham (a k a Bushey Heath) was suspended during WW2, and then its potential catchment area was designated part of the Green Belt, so the depot was left stranded several miles from the nearest tube line at Edgware.
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Post by John Tuthill on Mar 21, 2014 23:14:45 GMT
later bus designs were of integral construction, making the maintenance as was of separating the body from the chassis time consuming.. On the contrary , the problem with DMSs and later buses was that the the body distorted if removed from its chassis, because it was NOT of integral construction. The RM was closer to being of integral construction, with a rigid body suspended between the two subframes. ("wheelbarrows"). And a true integral like the Titan (introduced in 1978) had no separate chassis to be removed from! Thanks for that, I knew there was a problem with bodies, should have checked my book shelves first 
Oh, and it is very much on topic for a tube site - the facility was not built as a bus overhaul depot at all. It was to have been the main depot for the Northern Line: only one small problem: after the depot had been completed, construction of the extension to Aldenham (a k a Bushey Heath) was suspended during WW2, and then its potential catchment area was designated part of the Green Belt, so the depot was left stranded several miles from the nearest tube line at Edgware. [/quote] There are photos of its construction in Capital Transports "By Tube beyond Edgware"
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Mar 22, 2014 2:17:40 GMT
Aren't there still more Routemasters+varients in active preservation than there will ever be NB4L's built?
/off topic
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class411
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Post by class411 on Mar 22, 2014 7:51:19 GMT
Thanks for the brilliant answers, everybody.
I think I may have got the wrong idea from recent documentaries which (I thought) made it sound as if the facility was a complete failure and never worked as intended.
Whereas the reality sounds as if it just became redundant with changes in bus technology.
I Wish I could remember when I saw the original documentary film (which was a sort of 'puff' piece but very interesting), but, sadly, it was so long ago (probably early sixties or even late fifties which implies that I probably saw it at school.)
There is quite a good article on Wikepedia about the works (which I could find now that I know the name of the depot).
ETA: Having no read the above mentioned article I can see that the film was made in 1957 which means I definitely saw it at school. I'm now going to check youtube at jtuthill's suggestion - it would be great to see it again.
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Post by John Tuthill on Mar 22, 2014 8:00:46 GMT
Thanks for the brilliant answers, everybody. I think I may have got the wrong idea from recent documentaries which (I thought) made it sound as if the facility was a complete failure and never worked as intended. Whereas the reality sounds as if it just became redundant with changes in bus technology. I Wish I could remember when I saw the original documentary film (which was a sort of 'puff' piece but very interesting), but, sadly, it was so long ago (probably early sixties or even late fifties which implies that I probably saw it at school.) There is quite a good article on Wikepedia about the works (which I could find now that I know the name of the depot). No problem, even if my original answer was ar*e upwards! Go to 'You Tube' and type 'Aldenham' in the search box, there are a few nostalgic films there. |
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Post by phillw48 on Mar 22, 2014 9:00:41 GMT
There is also an excellent book in the Colourscene series on Aldenham and Chiswick (ISBN 1-900515-36-9.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2014 9:22:36 GMT
A further nail in the coffin for Aldenham (and Chiswick) was the change in vehicle legislation. At the time buses did not need to MOT'ed annually. It was considered acceptable, that if the bus had passed through an extensive overhaul, that the intervals between (what we refer to as) the MOT could be extended (from recollection) to every six years. This made heavy overhaul viable. The buses were of course regularly inspected at Garage level, and were subject to spot checks by the Ministry of Transport. However around the mid 80's the legislation was changed which removed the Aldenham/heavy overhaul exemption.
As a result all buses from new were now required to undertake annual MOT inspections.
Therefore the work carried out just prior to the MOT could be minimised to only those items requiring attention. LT did try to maintain a version of the overhaul process after this, but this gradually fizzled out.
The last overhaul the Routemasters undertook was during the refurbishment process which in effect modernised the Routemasters appearance (mainly RMLs, but later RMs repurchased for service). This was achieved though rewireing, re seating, new lighting and hard surfaces. Externally the buses were re-paneled where required and repainted. By then Aldenham had closed and the work was carried out by outside contractors. Arguably the only contractor with LT connections was Arriva London North who refurbished their own RMLs at Enfield bus garage.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 22, 2014 11:49:57 GMT
made it sound as if the facility was a complete failure and never worked as intended, . Well, it was intended to be a tube depot! |
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Post by 1018509 on Mar 22, 2014 15:30:10 GMT
This is just the opinion of an old dinosaur but the quality of the build of the buses since Routemaster or the trains since A60 1959/62 tube stock has seriously dropped and it seems to be connected with those that run the trains/buses (London Transport/London Regional Transport/TfL) call them what you will buying off the peg designs rather than what is needed probably due to the false economy of a cost factor.
Ain't nostalgia wonderful. |
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Post by orienteer on Mar 22, 2014 15:46:45 GMT
Thanks for the brilliant answers, everybody. I Wish I could remember when I saw the original documentary film (which was a sort of 'puff' piece but very interesting), but, sadly, it was so long ago (probably early sixties or even late fifties which implies that I probably saw it at school.) ETA: Having no read the above mentioned article I can see that the film was made in 1957 which means I definitely saw it at school. I'm now going to check youtube at jtuthill's suggestion - it would be great to see it again. I have a DVD, "Best of British Buses", published by Atlas Editions, which includes about 20 mins of an official film about the workings of Aldenham in the 1950s. Also has footage of the Routemaster 50 celebrations in 2004 in Finsbury Park. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Mar 22, 2014 16:25:01 GMT
This is just the opinion of an old dinosaur but the quality of the build of the buses since Routemaster or the trains since A60 1959/62 tube stock has seriously dropped It's not just the build quality. I can't stand the lower decks of most modern buses because they are an absolute mess. Compare the beautifully simple design of the RM (and its predecessors) with its two types of lower deck seating to the appalling hotchpotch that you get on current double deckers. Virtually no two seats on either side are the same, there are odd seats squashed in all over the place and half the seats seem to have the blue 'special use' stickers. (I've no objection to those in principle but when you get on a bus, avoid the first few seats because they are stickered, make your way to a vacant seat further down only to find that has a sticker too it's damned annoying). If you wonder why not just sit in one and get up if needed, you can get a quite hostile reaction from trying to offer one of those seats to the wrong person! |
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Post by crusty54 on Mar 22, 2014 17:51:16 GMT
It was interesting to see the Engineering Manager of London Buses said that refurbished buses for new contracts should look like new.
The rattles and vibrations mean they don't sound like new.
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Post by phillw48 on Mar 22, 2014 19:19:09 GMT
London Transport wanted the rear engined Routemaster, Leyland wanted to sell them Atlanteans so quoted a price way over the top, and then the bean counters stepped in. In the end London Transport got part of what it wanted with the B15 Titan, by then it was too late as a lot of money had been wasted on the DMS type. Not that it was a bad bus but London Buses never got the full value out of them.
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Mar 25, 2014 18:10:18 GMT
don't forget there was also Chiswick works which done the mechanical part of the overhaul. Units would be sent there (brakes/engines/gearboxes/axles) for rebuild and then back to Aldenham.
The closure of Chiswick and Aldenham can also get rather political; under the late Margaret Thatcher's government, almost everything that could be sold off was. The London bus repair facility was privatised and formed into Bus Engineering Ltd with a facility off the top end of Scrubs Lane. That small site took over some of the Chiswick and Aldenham work. One of the main shareholders of that company was a certain Mr. Thatcher whose name appeared on the fronts of fire engines.
The Chiswick site was sold for redevelopment and housing; as soon as that went, the BEL site up Scrub Lane went broke and shut down, thereby cutting the link of buses being overhauled in London.
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Post by phillw48 on Mar 25, 2014 20:47:19 GMT
There was also the famous skid pan which IIRC featured in an episode of 'On the Buses' (or was it a film?). Pity , I would like to have seen a 'Bendy bus' on it.  |
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Post by John Tuthill on Mar 25, 2014 21:47:33 GMT
There was also the famous skid pan which IIRC featured in an episode of 'On the Buses' (or was it a film?). Pity , I would like to have seen a 'Bendy bus' on it. It was one of their dire films. Remember seeing an episode of 'Top Gear' they had a race one of the vehicles was a bendy |
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Post by arun on Mar 25, 2014 23:07:13 GMT
I think the Aldenham bus overhaul documentary you mention might well be from the BTF film set "London on the Move" which is a two DVD set with disc 2 having the 17 minute film "Overhaul" [1957]. The DVD set is Vol.10 in the BTF collection and is available from Amazon or the London Bus Museum at Brooklands - LBM has a shop website. Loads of other tube stuff on the two discs as well.
The other well-known film with Aldenham [and Chiswick] in it is of course "Summer Holiday" starring that well known son of a railwayman, Cliff Richards!
Hope that helps.
Arun
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 26, 2014 10:15:02 GMT
"Summer Holiday" starring that well known son of a railwayman, Cliff Richards! Harry Webb's stage name is Cliff Richard (no "s"). He is often confused with Keith "Keef" Richards, the lead guitarist of the Rolling Stones. (Also, I think you are stretching a point to call Mr Webb senior a railwayman - he was in the catering trade, albeit one of his customers was the Indian Railways!). |
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Jul 1, 2014 8:28:38 GMT
Didn't Cliff Richard drive the Routemaster they used in "Summer Holiday" (dons tin hat and runs)....
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Post by John Tuthill on Jul 1, 2014 9:15:30 GMT
Didn't Cliff Richard drive the Routemaster they used in "Summer Holiday" (dons tin hat and runs).... It wasn't a Routemaster it was a RT. During the filming 3 RTs were utilised, wearing a non RT number plate. RT '1881' WLB 991 as it appeared in the film, was made up of RTs 2305,2366 and 4326, the opening shots taken at Aldenham had the workforce standing in as extras. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jul 1, 2014 9:56:27 GMT
Cliff drove an RT - but the Young Ones (Rik Mayall et al), which was full of references to Cliff, featured a stolen RM in their last ever episode - RM1536 to be precise.
(Routemaster fans look away now)
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,255
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Post by roythebus on Jul 10, 2014 6:25:55 GMT
Didn't Cliff Richard drive the Routemaster they used in "Summer Holiday" (dons tin hat and runs).... It wasn't a Routemaster it was a RT. During the filming 3 RTs were utilised, wearing a non RT number plate. RT '1881' WLB 991 as it appeared in the film, was made up of RTs 2305,2366 and 4326, the opening shots taken at Aldenham had the workforce standing in as extras. According to most of the people who ride on my RML2532 for their wedding, it's the bus that was used in Summer Holiday. But you and I know different... |
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Post by John Tuthill on Jul 10, 2014 8:43:17 GMT
It wasn't a Routemaster it was a RT. During the filming 3 RTs were utilised, wearing a non RT number plate. RT '1881' WLB 991 as it appeared in the film, was made up of RTs 2305,2366 and 4326, the opening shots taken at Aldenham had the workforce standing in as extras. According to most of the people who ride on my RML2532 for their wedding, it's the bus that was used in Summer Holiday. But you and I know different... I hope you get well paid-how many choruses of 'Summer Holiday' can you stand? Good defence if you were stopped for speeding. "Officer I want them off ASAP we're on chorus 45!"  |
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,255
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Post by roythebus on Jul 10, 2014 22:07:51 GMT
According to most of the people who ride on my RML2532 for their wedding, it's the bus that was used in Summer Holiday. But you and I know different... I hope you get well paid-how many choruses of 'Summer Holiday' can you stand? Good defence if you were stopped for speeding. "Officer I want them off ASAP we're on chorus 45!" Not many more....arghhhh..... |
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Post by metroland on Jul 11, 2014 19:10:03 GMT
Cliff drove an RT - but the Young Ones (Rik Mayall et al), which was full of references to Cliff, featured a stolen RM in their last ever episode - RM1536 to be precise. (Routemaster fans look away now) I had a Chiswick Works visit back in 1980 including a ride where the group were taken as passengers on the skid-pan (H&S would have a fit these days). We were told that Cliff actually learned to drive an RT and practised on the skid pan, but the insurers wouldn't let him drive on the actual film set (ie too expensive for them if the got injured and fliming was delayed/cancelled). |
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Post by metroland on Jul 21, 2014 13:58:24 GMT
Not sure if there's an icon for egg on my face. Have just realised what I posted was rubbish........
I did do a Chiswick tour in 1980 and did have a ride as a passenger on the skid pan, but what they were telling us about was Roger Moore practising for Live and Let Die (the film with the bus chase where the top was knocked off an RT). Otherwise the tale is the same. He did practice on the skid pan but insurers wouldn't let him drive on set.
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