Buying NR tickets from LU ticket offices

[Deleted]

Hello

I have a question about buying national rail tickets from LU ticket offices.

I attempted to buy a super off-peak day return last weekend from Highbury and Islington ticket office. However, the ticket office was only able to offer me the more expensive off-peak day return.

The intended journey was Highbury and Islington to Hatfield on a Saturday, taking Victoria line to Finsbury Park then changing to national rail.

I wonder if anybody knows if LU ticket offices are unable to sell this ticket, or whether it was simply a case of the ticket office assistant not knowing how?

Many thanks

(PS the circumstances were a little more complicated, as I wanted a boundary extension and gold card discount too, but the essential issue was that I couldn't be offered a ticket based on the cheaper super off-peak fare)

[melikepie]

As far as I've known, National Rail tickets can only be bought from National Rail stations and those that share with London Underground services. London Underground stations alone cannot.

[Deleted]

Apr 19, 2014 13:20:01 GMT melikepie said:

As far as I've known, National Rail tickets can only be bought from National Rail stations and those that share with London Underground services. London Underground stations alone cannot.

Thanks for your response. In this case the station is in the former category - as Highbury and Islington is a National Rail station as well as LU. However, unlike Finsbury Park for example, there's no National Rail ticket machine or National Rail ticket office.

The LU ticket office could sell me a National Rail ticket (based on off-peak), but not the ticket that I wanted (based on super off-peak).

The ticket clerk had to look at a ring-binder folder of fares, and didn't seem to be able to consult any computerised system. Maybe his ring binder didn't have all fares listed - but presumably it should be comprehensive.

Maybe this just isn't an issue that comes up often!

[metrailway]

Apr 19, 2014 11:47:09 GMT @staticsteve said:

Hello

I have a question about buying national rail tickets from LU ticket offices.

I attempted to buy a super off-peak day return last weekend from Highbury and Islington ticket office. However, the ticket office was only able to offer me the more expensive off-peak day return.

The intended journey was Highbury and Islington to Hatfield on a Saturday, taking Victoria line to Finsbury Park then changing to national rail.

I wonder if anybody knows if LU ticket offices are unable to sell this ticket, or whether it was simply a case of the ticket office assistant not knowing how?

Many thanks

(PS the circumstances were a little more complicated, as I wanted a boundary extension and gold card discount too, but the essential issue was that I couldn't be offered a ticket based on the cheaper super off-peak fare)

They should have been able to sell your super off peak ticket. All LU ticket offices have the ablility to sell tickets to a range of NR destinations (usually within the ex Network SouthEast area), with some ticket offices such as Harrow on the Hill (and I think H&I) being able to offer a slightly larger range of destinations.

It is likely that the booking clerk did not know how to sell you the correct ticket. The training given to LU staff regarding National Rail tickets is very poor. I tend to find the staff who know how to issue the correct ticket are staff who have been with LU since before BR privatisation.

[Deleted]

Apr 19, 2014 13:38:08 GMT metrailway said:

They should have been able to sell your super off peak ticket. All LU ticket offices have the ablility to sell tickets to a range of NR destinations (usually within the ex Network SouthEast area), with some ticket offices such as Harrow on the Hill (and I think H&I) being able to offer a slightly larger range of destinations.

It is likely that the booking clerk did not know how to sell you the correct ticket. The training given to LU staff regarding National Rail tickets is very poor. I tend to find the staff who know how to issue the correct ticket are staff who have been with LU since before BR privatisation.

Thank you for the information. I hoped this would be the case, but I gave up insisting on the cheaper ticket after 5 minutes because:

(a) a large queue had formed behind me,
(b) I decided I couldn't do any more to change the ticket clerk's mind - he wasn't going to give me the ticket I wanted! (I had a similar situation at Walthamstow Central once where the ticket clerk insisted there was no way to register my Gold Card discount on my Oyster Card, and I couldn't say anything to change his mind), and
(c) I wasn't sure I was definitely in the right at the time.

On the positive side, TfL promptly offered to refund the difference via a voucher in the post (I've found their central customer service team to be very good). However, they didn't confirm whether or not the ticket clerk made a mistake, or whether their systems meant it's impossible to buy the correct ticket. I think you've clarified that it's likely that it was a mistake by the clerk, and that I should try asking for the correct ticket again next time.

Thanks

[superteacher]

As far as I know, standard off peak returns are only available on Monday to Friday, At weekends, the only option would be the super off peak ticket. So I'm pretty sure that it would have been available from the ticket office,

[Deleted]

Apr 19, 2014 14:06:59 GMT superteacher said:

As far as I know, standard off peak returns are only available on Monday to Friday, At weekends, the only option would be the super off peak ticket. So I'm pretty sure that it would have been available from the ticket office,

The fare quoted (before discounts) was £11.20, which is off-peak day return. The super off-peak is £8. This was on a Sunday, so I must have definitely been given the wrong information by the clerk.

On another note, I think it's impossible to buy this ticket from a LU ticket machine, so I'm not sure what you can do if the ticket office is closed (although the ticket office being open didn't help in my case!).

[metrailway]

Apr 19, 2014 14:00:14 GMT @staticsteve said:

Thank you for the information. I hoped this would be the case, but I gave up insisting on the cheaper ticket after 5 minutes because:

(a) a large queue had formed behind me,
(b) I decided I couldn't do any more to change the ticket clerk's mind - he wasn't going to give me the ticket I wanted! (I had a similar situation at Walthamstow Central once where the ticket clerk insisted there was no way to register my Gold Card discount on my Oyster Card, and I couldn't say anything to change his mind), and
(c) I wasn't sure I was definitely in the right at the time.

On the positive side, TfL promptly offered to refund the difference via a voucher in the post (I've found their central customer service team to be very good). However, they didn't confirm whether or not the ticket clerk made a mistake, or whether their systems meant it's impossible to buy the correct ticket. I think you've clarified that it's likely that it was a mistake by the clerk, and that I should try asking for the correct ticket again next time.

Thanks

Buying a ticket to a NR station from a LU ticket office really is a mixed bag - As I've stated previously I find the very experienced staff having no issue with selling tickets to National Rail destinations but then I also have had very younger staff having no problem as well. However, it tends to be a struggle to get the ticket you want. I use Harrow on the Hill regularly and most of the time they are very good, but I remember around two years ago where the newish CSA had no idea how to issue a Anytime Day return to Aylesbury!

Apr 19, 2014 14:13:44 GMT @staticsteve said:

The fare quoted (before discounts) was £11.20, which is off-peak day return. The super off-peak is £8. This was on a Sunday, so I must have definitely been given the wrong information by the clerk.

On another note, I think it's impossible to buy this ticket from a LU ticket machine, so I'm not sure what you can do if the ticket office is closed (although the ticket office being open didn't help in my case!).

If you don't mind walking a bit, try Canonbury. As it is a London Overground managed station, it is a National Rail managed station, so the ticket office/machine should be able to offer you the full range of NR tickets. The price is the same - £8.00.

Mind you the training given to LO staff is almost as bad as the training on LU!

[Deleted]

I regularly use Harrow on the Hill when I'm going beyond Amersham, and there's no problem getting the Network Railcard discount when the ticket office is open. The problem comes when it's closed, as it was a few Sundays ago when I needed to get to Wendover at 0900 - all the staff on duty could suggest was to buy my ticket at Wendover, and they let me through the barrier.

Why can't Network Railcard be added to the discounts available from the self-service machines? I know at one time it was under threat of withdrawal, but I think the threat was lifted some time ago.

[pitdiver]

For my two p's worth I would add that when I joined LUL in 1989 the selling of BR ticket was considered a "dark art". Most ticket offices could sell a very limited number of BR tickets. However a few selected ones could sell a far bigger range. These select few offices included HOH, Moor Park and the others on the Amersham branch. I can't speak of other offices on the District Line. I worked in the Moorgate Met offices and we sold a large range of tickets. But it was always thought that Farringdon sold the biggest range therefore making it a nightmare of a Booking Office to work in.

[Deleted]

Apr 19, 2014 14:00:14 GMT @staticsteve said:

Apr 19, 2014 13:38:08 GMT metrailway said:

They should have been able to sell your super off peak ticket. All LU ticket offices have the ablility to sell tickets to a range of NR destinations (usually within the ex Network SouthEast area), with some ticket offices such as Harrow on the Hill (and I think H&I) being able to offer a slightly larger range of destinations.

It is likely that the booking clerk did not know how to sell you the correct ticket. The training given to LU staff regarding National Rail tickets is very poor. I tend to find the staff who know how to issue the correct ticket are staff who have been with LU since before BR privatisation.

Thank you for the information. I hoped this would be the case, but I gave up insisting on the cheaper ticket after 5 minutes because:

(a) a large queue had formed behind me

Ironically TfL plan to close that and another 260+ ticket offices lol!

[Deleted]

Apr 19, 2014 14:52:46 GMT metrailway said:

If you don't mind walking a bit, try Canonbury. As it is a London Overground managed station, it is a National Rail managed station, so the ticket office/machine should be able to offer you the full range of NR tickets. The price is the same - £8.00.

Mind you the training given to LO staff is almost as bad as the training on LU!

That's a decent suggestion thanks - Caledonian Road and Barnsbury is close to me. I understand that Southern and FCC ticket machines now offer boundary zone extension tickets after being reprogrammed, although I haven't heard anyone specifically mention whether LO ticket machines do.

I would actually be OK going to Finsbury Park on my travelcard and then getting my own ticket there in the circumstances I posted about, so in retrospect I didn't need a ticket for myself before I started at H&I.

However, I did need to get a ticket before we entered H&I station for my companion, as they didn't have a travelcard. Unfortunately the ticket clerk at Highbury and Islington said I couldn't get a Gold Card discounted ticket for that person as he said I could only purchase a discounted Z1-6 travelcard for another person with my Gold Card. I assume he was wrong - from what I understand I was buying a train ticket, not a LU ticket, therefore I am entitled to buy discounted tickets for other people I am travelling with.

[Deleted]

Apr 19, 2014 15:41:16 GMT @stonesfan said:

I regularly use Harrow on the Hill when I'm going beyond Amersham, and there's no problem getting the Network Railcard discount when the ticket office is open. The problem comes when it's closed, as it was a few Sundays ago when I needed to get to Wendover at 0900 - all the staff on duty could suggest was to buy my ticket at Wendover, and they let me through the barrier.

Why can't Network Railcard be added to the discounts available from the self-service machines? I know at one time it was under threat of withdrawal, but I think the threat was lifted some time ago.

I asked TfL customer services if they will change the ticket machines before closing ticket offices. They said they do plan on doing this, including adding the feature to buy boundary zone extensions tickets. I'd hope this would also include the ability to apply Network / Gold Card discounts too, so hopefully you may have an easier ticketing experience soon!

[Deleted]

Apr 19, 2014 19:34:58 GMT pitdiver said:

For my two p's worth I would add that when I joined LUL in 1989 the selling of BR ticket was considered a "dark art". Most ticket offices could sell a very limited number of BR tickets. However a few selected ones could sell a far bigger range. These select few offices included HOH, Moor Park and the others on the Amersham branch. I can't speak of other offices on the District Line. I worked in the Moorgate Met offices and we sold a large range of tickets. But it was always thought that Farringdon sold the biggest range therefore making it a nightmare of a Booking Office to work in.

It did seem to be a bit of a "dark art" as the ticket clerk had to use his ring-binder folder rather than a computerised system. It seemed antiquated that he had to do this, whilst I could just look on the National Rail app on my phone to find the correct fare!

[Deleted]

Apr 20, 2014 1:13:34 GMT @a729 said:

]Ironically TfL plan to close that and another 260+ ticket offices lol!

I'd prefer for the ticket offices to stay open, but unfortunately the reality seems to be that I will get a better ticketing buying experience in the future when they upgrade the ticket machines and close the ticket offices. If this is done correctly, then ticket machines will then be able to sell me the full range of tickets that I want - something the ticket clerk was unable to do. Obviously they could keep the ticket offices open and upgrade the machines, but that's another matter not for this thread!

[Deleted]

Apr 19, 2014 11:47:09 GMT @staticsteve said:

Hello

I have a question about buying national rail tickets from LU ticket offices.

I attempted to buy a super off-peak day return last weekend from Highbury and Islington ticket office. However, the ticket office was only able to offer me the more expensive off-peak day return.

The intended journey was Highbury and Islington to Hatfield on a Saturday, taking Victoria line to Finsbury Park then changing to national rail.

I wonder if anybody knows if LU ticket offices are unable to sell this ticket, or whether it was simply a case of the ticket office assistant not knowing how?

Many thanks

(PS the circumstances were a little more complicated, as I wanted a boundary extension and gold card discount too, but the essential issue was that I couldn't be offered a ticket based on the cheaper super off-peak fare 

If your buying discounted tickets for yourself and someone else they have to both start and finish at the same place.
 If you wish to buy someone a gold card discounted travelcard ,your annual would have to be a zone 1-6 at the minimum for you not to have to buy a discounted travelcard as well. Also we can not sell out of boundary travelcards, for example Hatfield and zones 1-6. Their are restrictions on which National Rail tickets can be sold, something about taking TOC profits away from them but that varies from station to station.
When Tfl customer services said that they will add zone extensions,something which the machines can already do. Did you mention that you want to set the extension as the origin? Sorry to ask all these questions but National Rail ticketing is a painful process with so many terms and restrictions. The last thing you wont to do is issue a ticket which gets the customer a fine, I just wish national rail would simplify the restrictions and so get rid of this very artificial attempt at making competition and have one National Railcard!

[Deleted]

Apr 21, 2014 2:14:37 GMT @yesitisthatway said:

If your buying discounted tickets for yourself and someone else they have to both start and finish at the same place.

Is this a restriction that TfL ticket offices impose rather than a National Rail restriction? As far as I understand there's no restriction like this when using Gold Cards on the NR network - the NR website states that when buying Gold Card discounted tickets for other people "Gold Card holders do not need to purchase a ticket for themselves if the journey to be undertaken is covered by their Season ticket."

Apr 21, 2014 2:14:37 GMT @yesitisthatway said:

 If you wish to buy someone a gold card discounted travelcard ,your annual would have to be a zone 1-6 at the minimum for you not to have to buy a discounted travelcard as well. Also we can not sell out of boundary travelcards, for example Hatfield and zones 1-6.

My annual travelcard is only Z1-3. I wanted to buy a return ticket for the other person, but I was told I couldn't do that and I needed to buy a Z1-6 discounted travelcard for them instead plus an extension ticket. I was sold the travelcard without buying one myself.

Apr 21, 2014 2:14:37 GMT @yesitisthatway said:

Their are restrictions on which National Rail tickets can be sold, something about taking TOC profits away from them but that varies from station to station.

This could be why the ticket clerk couldn't sell me the super off-peak fare?

Apr 21, 2014 2:14:37 GMT @yesitisthatway said:

When Tfl customer services said that they will add zone extensions,something which the machines can already do.

I didn't realise this. I looked at the machines but couldn't find the option (the Southern and FCC machines have a "buy tickets from another station option". Would this allow me to apply the Gold Card discount too?

Apr 21, 2014 2:14:37 GMT @yesitisthatway said:

Did you mention that you want to set the extension as the origin?

My wording would have been along the lines of "one super off peak day return from boundary of zone 3 and one super off peak day return from Highbury and Islington"

Apr 21, 2014 2:14:37 GMT @yesitisthatway said:

Sorry to ask all these questions but National Rail ticketing is a painful process with so many terms and restrictions. The last thing you wont to do is issue a ticket which gets the customer a fine, I just wish national rail would simplify the restrictions and so get rid of this very artificial attempt at making competition and have one National Railcard!

I can see the difficulties and complications of the current ticketing system, and can sympathise with station staff who have to sell the tickets!

[Deleted]

"Is this a restriction that TfL ticket offices impose rather than a National Rail restriction? As far as I understand there's no restriction like this when using Gold Cards on the NR network - the NR website states that when buying Gold Card discounted tickets for other people "Gold Card holders do not need to purchase a ticket for themselves if the journey to be undertaken is covered by their Season ticket."
Hi Steve, in your quote it says if the season tickets covers the journey. You were going from Zone 2 but wanting to excess from boundary zone3 to Hatfield. I don't think it allows part cover and part purchase if your buying for someone else as well from the origin station you would normally be covered from. I'm happy to be proved wrong.

My annual travelcard is only Z1-3. I wanted to buy a return ticket for the other person, but I was told I couldn't do that and I needed to buy a Z1-6 discounted travelcard for them instead plus an extension ticket. I was sold the travelcard without buying one myself.
I would of sold you a super off peak return with gold card discount for both of you from Highbury to Hatfield. Maybe his TOM does not allow or he does not know how to search for that ticket type?

This could be why the ticket clerk couldn't sell me the super off-peak fare?
Yes Underground ticket offices are restricted at Mainline Terminal stations but  I think that varies.

I didn't realise this. I looked at the machines but couldn't find the option (the Southern and FCC machines have a "buy tickets from another station option". Would this allow me to apply the Gold Card discount too?
You can't buy tickets which start at another station from underground ticket machines..yet. At the moment you can only apply railcard discounts to travel cards but this may change. Best bet if in London use oyster with railcard added, well it is the best bet most of the time.

My wording would have been along the lines of "one super off peak day return from boundary of zone 3 and one super off peak day return from Highbury and Islington"
You said that Tfl customer care said they will add zone extensions, is this an option in the near future. Are they saying that you will be able to buy tickets with a different origin station?

I can see the difficulties and complications of the current ticketing system, and can sympathise with station staff who have to sell the tickets!

[Deleted]

Apr 21, 2014 16:59:49 GMT @yesitisthatway said:

Hi Steve, in your quote it says if the season tickets covers the journey. You were going from Zone 2 but wanting to excess from boundary zone3 to Hatfield. I don't think it allows part cover and part purchase if your buying for someone else as well from the origin station you would normally be covered from. I'm happy to be proved wrong.

I've searched for any clear wording on this issue on the National Rail website, but it's not definitively set out. However, my logic is that I've already paid for part of my journey (up to the boundary of zone 3), so it doesn't seem right that I'd have to pay for it again.

I would have thought I could buy my own extension ticket separately from purchasing my companion's ticket if I chose - I can't see any restriction anywhere that says a discounted ticket can only be sold if the Gold Card holder is sold the same ticket (assuming the journey is not covered by my travelcard).

In this scenario, travelling from H&I to Hatfield, if I succeeded in buying an extension ticket for myself and a discounted return ticket for my companion, I can't see that either I or my companion would be doing anything wrong:

1 - My companion wouldn't be contravening restrictions as they just need to ensure that they are travelling with the Gold Card holder at all times, and that the Gold Card can be produced when required.

2 - I wouldn't contravening restrictions as I've got a valid ticket (travelcard then extension) for my journey.

The restrictions do say "Gold Card holders do not need to purchase a ticket for themselves if the journey to be undertaken is covered by the Season ticket route validity of their Annual Gold Card/Annual Gold Card Travelcard.". However, that just clarifies that I don't need a ticket if I'm within my travelcard zones (or my route if I had non-travelcard season ticket). I wouldn't be within my travelcard zones in this case, so I would buy an extension ticket, but the wording doesn't say I need to buy the same ticket as my companion.

The closest wording that could imply I'm to buy the same ticket as my companion is the restriction that "The Gold Card holder may be accompanied by up to three other adults at the same discounted fare each, and up to four children at the prevailing flat fare each.". However, I take "at the same discounted fare each" to refer to the same fare as each other - i.e. all three adults need the same discounted fare as each other, not the same discounted fare I'm getting. This interpretation makes sense to me, as this wording applies whether or not the journey is within my travelcard area (or my route if I had non-travelcard season ticket), i.e. whether or not I have to buy a ticket.

But I admit it's not clear!

On a separate note I noticed the restrictions say "Holders of Annual Gold Card Travelcards which are NOT valid for travel in Fare Zones 1-6 inclusive, and who are - a) purchasing discounted Off Peak Day Travelcards for accompanying adults or children and b) intending to travel in a Fare Zone (or Zones) NOT covered by their Travelcard season ticket, must also purchase a discounted Zones 1-6 Off-Peak Day Travelcard for themselves."

Which means that if I was undertaking a totally different journey, within z1-3, then I'm allowed to purchase a discounted off-peak z1-6 travelcard for my companion. However, if I'm intending to travel to zone 4 or beyond, then I must buy a z1-6 travelcard too. It seems very complicated and odd, and difficult for the ticket clerk!

[Tomcakes]

I seem to remember that, when British Rail was broken up and privatised, a major concern was that the privatised firms would restrict ticket sales and only sell specific tickets to give them an advantage. I was under the impression that a rule existed (although I couldn't say where) that if a passenger asked for a named type of ticket to be issued, the assistant MUST issue him with that ticket. So whilst a firm could put up snazzy posters and the like, and promote a particular type or range of ticket, a passenger who goes to the ticket office and asks for an X type ticket from Y to Z must be sold the ticket he wants.

I also understood that if a passenger wishes to purchase a given type of ticket but cannot (because, for instance, the ticket office is closed) and he is in an area where Penalty Fares operate, he must buy some ticket and then as soon as reasonably practicable must purchase the ticket he wanted - the cost of the original ticket being deducted. This is of course more complex than the usual practice throughout most of the BR network which is that at stations without ticket offices, the guard will sell you a ticket.

(On further thought, I know there are some exceptions to this - for instance, if a passenger requests a railcard discounted ticket and doesn't have the railcard with them, the assistant can refuse to sell them the ticket (even if the ticket is for travel in the future and the guard should pick up on it). Perhaps there is another exception along the lines that they can refuse to sell a ticket which they believe will be used on a journey for which it is invalid?).

[metrailway]

Apr 22, 2014 22:42:58 GMT Tomcakes said:

I seem to remember that, when British Rail was broken up and privatised, a major concern was that the privatised firms would restrict ticket sales and only sell specific tickets to give them an advantage. I was under the impression that a rule existed (although I couldn't say where) that if a passenger asked for a named type of ticket to be issued, the assistant MUST issue him with that ticket. So whilst a firm could put up snazzy posters and the like, and promote a particular type or range of ticket, a passenger who goes to the ticket office and asks for an X type ticket from Y to Z must be sold the ticket he wants.

I also understood that if a passenger wishes to purchase a given type of ticket but cannot (because, for instance, the ticket office is closed) and he is in an area where Penalty Fares operate, he must buy some ticket and then as soon as reasonably practicable must purchase the ticket he wanted - the cost of the original ticket being deducted. This is of course more complex than the usual practice throughout most of the BR network which is that at stations without ticket offices, the guard will sell you a ticket.

(On further thought, I know there are some exceptions to this - for instance, if a passenger requests a railcard discounted ticket and doesn't have the railcard with them, the assistant can refuse to sell them the ticket (even if the ticket is for travel in the future and the guard should pick up on it). Perhaps there is another exception along the lines that they can refuse to sell a ticket which they believe will be used on a journey for which it is invalid?).

Yes that is correct - Nearly all ticket offices on the National Rail network are meant to be impartial. This is set out in the Ticketing Settlement Agreement between ATOC and DfT. This is why nearly all ticket offices usually just have a sign stating tickets and no TOC branding.

See: booking office at Marylebone
See: Ticket Office at Windsor

The exceptions are when there are two or more ticket offices - the 'main' ticket office must be impartial, whilst the others can be TOC specific but must be labelled as such.

If one asks for a specific ticket, the booking clerk MUST sell the ticket. If the passenger asks for a specific ticket which would not be valid, the booking clerk should ask for further information e.g departure time.

If a customer does not state a specific ticket, the booking clerk should ask for further information. For example, if I walked up to the main ticket office at Euston and simply asked for a return to Birmingham, the booking office clerk should NOT just sell me the £164 Anytime Return Any Permitted automatically. The clerk should ask questions to establish the correct ticket for the passenger.

Unfortunately, on rare occassions, I have experienced disregard for impartial ticketing rules from some ticket office staff, such as staff actively promoting their own TOC specific fare.