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Post by snoggle on May 28, 2014 13:16:59 GMT
TfL have confirmed that they have agreed with LOROL that they will operate the devolved West Anglia services to Chingford, Enfield and Cheshunt (via 7 Sisters) plus Romford - Upminster. The services transfer on 31 May 2015 and then LOROL run them for 17 months after which the entire Overground network will be retendered. TfL Press release |
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Post by sawb on May 28, 2014 14:33:56 GMT
Wonder how the rolling stock split will work, as currently of course 315s are interchangeable between Great Eastern suburban and West Anglia suburban? Likewise, 317s, which run between London and Stansted Airport/Cambridge and other West Anglia routes, can also be seen from time to time working the Romford to Upminster route!
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Post by motorman on May 28, 2014 20:09:07 GMT
Transfer Liverpool St - Shenfield to LOROL and the whole GE inner suburban service remains as one operator!
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on May 28, 2014 20:38:29 GMT
Wonder how the rolling stock split will work, as currently of course 315s are interchangeable between Great Eastern suburban and West Anglia suburban? Likewise, 317s, which run between London and Stansted Airport/Cambridge and other West Anglia routes, can also be seen from time to time working the Romford to Upminster route! Presumably something similar as to when TransPennineExpress was separated from Arriva Trains (Northern). Whilst at first the MetroTrain/Northern/TransPennine 158 fleet were all operated from one pool, in the months before TPE was launched things had been separated such that Arriva (Transpennine) had a dedicated fleet of 158s. When TPE was subsequently franchised to First/Keolis they re-liveried all "their" 158s with vinyl and subsequently replaced them all with shiny new Desiros. Whilst up to now there has been no need to have segregated fleets, it will soon be just one of those things; just like Voyagers with Cross Country/Virgin. |
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Post by sawb on May 29, 2014 7:43:49 GMT
Transfer Liverpool St - Shenfield to LOROL and the whole GE inner suburban service remains as one operator! I seem to recall reading somewhere that Greater Anglia Shenfield suburban services are to be split from the main franchise in 2015 in readiness for Crossrail? Anyone able to shed any light on this? Are they being transferred to LOROL until Crossrail takes over? |
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Post by snoggle on May 29, 2014 9:23:55 GMT
Transfer Liverpool St - Shenfield to LOROL and the whole GE inner suburban service remains as one operator! I seem to recall reading somewhere that Greater Anglia Shenfield suburban services are to be split from the main franchise in 2015 in readiness for Crossrail? Anyone able to shed any light on this? Are they being transferred to LOROL until Crossrail takes over? Greater Anglia lose the following services next year :- Liverpool St - Shenfield which moves to the new Crossrail TOC. There is no intermediate involvement with LOROL. The transfer date is yet to be announced but I would not be surprised if it was also 31 May 2015 to keep things tidy. This date also coincides with the start of Accounting Period 3 in Financial Year 2015/16 so it makes sense in the financial / accounting context. Makes the treatment of costs and revenue etc much easier to deal with by having a transfer at a period end / start of a new period. Liverpool St - Chingford / Cheshunt via S Sisters / Enfield Town which move to LOROL Romford - Upminster which moves to LOROL. Greater Anglia will continue to run Stratford - Hertford East / Cambridge services as well as local services on the line though Tottenham Hale and northwards. These do not transfer to TfL control / operation. In 2016 Paddington - Heathrow (Heathrow Connect stopping services only) moves to the Crossrail TOC. In 2019 Crossrail will take over the bulk of FGW suburban services out of Paddington although some semi fast trains will remain with FGW as will West Ealing - Greenford services. HTH |
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Post by sawb on May 29, 2014 9:29:38 GMT
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Dom K
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Post by Dom K on May 29, 2014 10:29:24 GMT
It will be interesting to see if the peak journeys Hertford East via Seven Seven will still run. Also sometimes during engineering work Tottenham Hale trains run via Seven Sisters! I know the metals belong to Network Rail but any changes could hinder new timetables etc
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Post by snoggle on May 29, 2014 12:25:25 GMT
My guess is not very much as they will not wish to throw money away on doing much to the existing stock or hiring more. I can't see anyone wishing to muck around with the timetable very much given the imperative will be facilitating the Crossrail upgrade works and allowing the new trains to come into service quickly. |
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Post by snoggle on May 29, 2014 12:40:30 GMT
It will be interesting to see if the peak journeys Hertford East via Seven Seven will still run. Also sometimes during engineering work Tottenham Hale trains run via Seven Sisters! I know the metals belong to Network Rail but any changes could hinder new timetables etc I expect they will because Greater Anglia have track access rights for those trains and they run that way because of a lack of paths via T Hale. I cannot see TfL deliberately making the situation worse in the peaks as it knows there is overcrowding and there's no merit in upsetting people travelling in from Herts / Essex. As TfL have helped broker the deal for extra tracks near T Hale they are hardly likely to obstruct Greater Anglia or Network Rail by preventing diversionary routes being used. Anyway LOROL / TfL are just one party amongst many and have no overriding power to interfere with another operator. They'd soon attract the ire of the Rail Regulator if they were trying to work outside the industry's rules. |
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Post by grahamhewett on May 29, 2014 13:09:43 GMT
snoggle - there's no sign of TfL receiving any extra money from DfT to run more than is there now.
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Post by snoggle on May 29, 2014 20:05:36 GMT
snoggle - there's no sign of TfL receiving any extra money from DfT to run more than is there now. Sure but other documents I've seen today show that TfL have budgeted monies to ensure the "objectives of devolution" are delivered. I imagine much of this is in smartening stations but the balance will be for extra staffing and possibly extra train services paid for through the concession fees paid to the operator. This mirrors the stance for the former Silverlink network where DfT grant is broadly static but TfL funds the extra services. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 9:37:21 GMT
Yesterday in Walthamstow Central Station Abellio Greater Anglia was trialing a new way to connect between the Victoria line and National Rail services to Chingford. I spoke to one of the person here to help and he told me that the trial was to see if the flows of people would be possible with the design they are thinking of once they put barriers. According to him the barriers will be installed in October this year and I suppose that's the first step towards the take over of this service by TfL.
In my opinion it will get quite quickly overcrowded but I don't think they have much of a choice (a bit like in Highbury & Islington between the Victoria Line and the Overground).
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Post by snoggle on Jun 27, 2014 12:57:54 GMT
Yesterday in Walthamstow Central Station Abellio Greater Anglia was trialing a new way to connect between the Victoria line and National Rail services to Chingford. I spoke to one of the person here to help and he told me that the trial was to see if the flows of people would be possible with the design they are thinking of once they put barriers. According to him the barriers will be installed in October this year and I suppose that's the first step towards the take over of this service by TfL. In my opinion it will get quite quickly overcrowded but I don't think they have much of a choice (a bit like in Highbury & Islington between the Victoria Line and the Overground). Are you able to say what they were actually doing? I'm familiar with the layout of WW CS. I'm struggling to see how they can install sufficient gates in a way which still allows people to exit the tube and not meet another gate if they go via either NR Platform to reach the street. It would mean gates on the platforms which is not good given the big flows at Walthamstow. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 13:14:35 GMT
Yesterday in Walthamstow Central Station Abellio Greater Anglia was trialing a new way to connect between the Victoria line and National Rail services to Chingford. I spoke to one of the person here to help and he told me that the trial was to see if the flows of people would be possible with the design they are thinking of once they put barriers. According to him the barriers will be installed in October this year and I suppose that's the first step towards the take over of this service by TfL. In my opinion it will get quite quickly overcrowded but I don't think they have much of a choice (a bit like in Highbury & Islington between the Victoria Line and the Overground). Are you able to say what they were actually doing? I'm familiar with the layout of WW CS. I'm struggling to see how they can install sufficient gates in a way which still allows people to exit the tube and not meet another gate if they go via either NR Platform to reach the street. It would mean gates on the platforms which is not good given the big flows at Walthamstow. I will try to explain what I had to do. Normally you can go straight from the Tube part of the station onto the Northbound platform via the set of stairs. This time they had us going back to the concourse of the NR part of the station to make us come out via the entry that you would use if you were coming from the street level. The guy told me they plan to put a set of gates there (I would assume ~4 according to the width available there). I totally agree with you it will become quite a bottleneck but the guy told me "it's not ideal but that's the best we can do". Hope this helps! |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jun 27, 2014 15:14:46 GMT
"it's not ideal but that's the best we can do"
Let us not forget the unspoken suffix to this - 'without any money being spent'.
The Overground is good but it will never reach parity with the tube or even its own full potential because the money for proper integration beyond branding is just not there.
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Post by snoggle on Jun 27, 2014 19:59:18 GMT
Are you able to say what they were actually doing? I'm familiar with the layout of WW CS. I'm struggling to see how they can install sufficient gates in a way which still allows people to exit the tube and not meet another gate if they go via either NR Platform to reach the street. It would mean gates on the platforms which is not good given the big flows at Walthamstow. I will try to explain what I had to do. Normally you can go straight from the Tube part of the station onto the Northbound platform via the set of stairs. This time they had us going back to the concourse of the NR part of the station to make us come out via the entry that you would use if you were coming from the street level. The guy told me they plan to put a set of gates there (I would assume ~4 according to the width available there). I totally agree with you it will become quite a bottleneck but the guy told me "it's not ideal but that's the best we can do". Hope this helps! Sorry to drag this out but I'm still confused. I'll play back how I'm interpreting your words. You exited the tube gateline and went up the staircase which takes you to the Chingford Bound platform. You walked along a short distance to where you pass the Oyster validators at the exit from the platform into the ticket hall and then I get lost! Normally you'd just walk past the validators into the ticket hall and then you have a choice of turn left to the bus station or turn right past the closed ticket office to the ramp to Hoe St. Sorry to be dense but I can't see what was different unless they'd opened up the bit to the left of the platform exit which used to have two bike racks on it which circumvents the ticket hall building. The big problem at Walthamstow Central is you have to allow tube passengers to reach the tube ticket hall from the street without going through gates which means you have to physically separate the Greater Anglia passengers from the Tube ones. If they propose to shove people from the tube out into the street to force them back through a gateline then they'll have a riot on their hands from those people who *interchange* to and from the Tube and Chingford Line. Forcing them to take extra minutes and thus make them miss their train will be hugely unpopular. Given the huge numbers at peak times I'd say it was so dangerous in terms of crowding to force people through a couple of gate walkways that it would never pass muster by the ORR and Fire Brigade. We do need to stop this TOC inspired lunacy of gating everything even when it doesn't work. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 22:37:29 GMT
So separate gate lines for the tube and the overground station? It is good that this retains the public walkway through the tunnel but funnelling people like that seems completely mad.
I had always assumed that when they gatelined the station they'd move the tube barriers into the tunnel and gateline it all up as a single space.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2014 8:52:46 GMT
I will try to explain what I had to do. Normally you can go straight from the Tube part of the station onto the Northbound platform via the set of stairs. This time they had us going back to the concourse of the NR part of the station to make us come out via the entry that you would use if you were coming from the street level. The guy told me they plan to put a set of gates there (I would assume ~4 according to the width available there). I totally agree with you it will become quite a bottleneck but the guy told me "it's not ideal but that's the best we can do". Hope this helps! Sorry to drag this out but I'm still confused. I'll play back how I'm interpreting your words. You exited the tube gateline and went up the staircase which takes you to the Chingford Bound platform. You walked along a short distance to where you pass the Oyster validators at the exit from the platform into the ticket hall and then I get lost! Normally you'd just walk past the validators into the ticket hall and then you have a choice of turn left to the bus station or turn right past the closed ticket office to the ramp to Hoe St. Sorry to be dense but I can't see what was different unless they'd opened up the bit to the left of the platform exit which used to have two bike racks on it which circumvents the ticket hall building. The big problem at Walthamstow Central is you have to allow tube passengers to reach the tube ticket hall from the street without going through gates which means you have to physically separate the Greater Anglia passengers from the Tube ones. If they propose to shove people from the tube out into the street to force them back through a gateline then they'll have a riot on their hands from those people who *interchange* to and from the Tube and Chingford Line. Forcing them to take extra minutes and thus make them miss their train will be hugely unpopular. Given the huge numbers at peak times I'd say it was so dangerous in terms of crowding to force people through a couple of gate walkways that it would never pass muster by the ORR and Fire Brigade. We do need to stop this TOC inspired lunacy of gating everything even when it doesn't work. Sorry I couldn't make it clear enough it's a bit hard to explain without having a map or something. So like you said, they made us come up the stairs as usual but where you have these metal posts (holding the "porch") they had erected a fence making you go out out of the station via that door on the left that is normally closed. You ended up being at the entrance of the station where you would normally go to when you arrive by bus. Then they had us using the validate by the platform (on the right) before being able to wait for the train. This is where they would want to pull gate and I suppose the fence would become some sort of wall... |
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Post by snoggle on Jun 30, 2014 11:31:07 GMT
Sorry I couldn't make it clear enough it's a bit hard to explain without having a map or something. So like you said, they made us come up the stairs as usual but where you have these metal posts (holding the "porch") they had erected a fence making you go out out of the station via that door on the left that is normally closed. You ended up being at the entrance of the station where you would normally go to when you arrive by bus. Then they had us using the validate by the platform (on the right) before being able to wait for the train. This is where they would want to pull gate and I suppose the fence would become some sort of wall... Got it now. It's what I suspected. There are actually faint painted lines on the NR platforms to delineate the paid and unpaid areas. There has to be an unpaid walkway between the street and the top of the stairs down to the tube. I imagine therefore that Abellio / LOROL will installed fixed barrier along the platforms where the painted lines to give an uppaid route out to the street - the "normally shut" bit off the n/b platform you mention. The walkway with the validators would, as you say, be gated but it does make the interchange movement somewhat ridiculous. It'll be even worse on the Liv St bound platform as I can't see that gates could be installed in the ticket hall which means they need to be on the platform. They'll probably have to move the coffee shop thing to allow a staggered gateline arrangement but I'd be surprised if you can get more than a couple of walkways installed before you encroach on the platform width and need to not be too close to the platform edge. The only other option is knock the station building about to create space for a gateline but I wonder how feasible that is. The station doesn't seem to be listed but I suspect that any attempt to make substantial alterations might cause a reaction from the Council. I dare say we'll find out soon enough. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 7:20:37 GMT
Always on the same topic, I was in Walthamstow Central yesterday waiting for the train while it was pouring down. In case they decide to use part of the covered platform to put ticket gates on, they've got to extend the rain cover to the whole of the platform because people (and I) tend to not wait under the rain on the platform!
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Post by sawb on Jul 9, 2014 9:18:32 GMT
Sorry I couldn't make it clear enough it's a bit hard to explain without having a map or something. So like you said, they made us come up the stairs as usual but where you have these metal posts (holding the "porch") they had erected a fence making you go out out of the station via that door on the left that is normally closed. You ended up being at the entrance of the station where you would normally go to when you arrive by bus. Then they had us using the validate by the platform (on the right) before being able to wait for the train. This is where they would want to pull gate and I suppose the fence would become some sort of wall... Got it now. It's what I suspected. There are actually faint painted lines on the NR platforms to delineate the paid and unpaid areas. There has to be an unpaid walkway between the street and the top of the stairs down to the tube. I imagine therefore that Abellio / LOROL will installed fixed barrier along the platforms where the painted lines to give an uppaid route out to the street - the "normally shut" bit off the n/b platform you mention. The walkway with the validators would, as you say, be gated but it does make the interchange movement somewhat ridiculous. It'll be even worse on the Liv St bound platform as I can't see that gates could be installed in the ticket hall which means they need to be on the platform. They'll probably have to move the coffee shop thing to allow a staggered gateline arrangement but I'd be surprised if you can get more than a couple of walkways installed before you encroach on the platform width and need to not be too close to the platform edge. The only other option is knock the station building about to create space for a gateline but I wonder how feasible that is. The station doesn't seem to be listed but I suspect that any attempt to make substantial alterations might cause a reaction from the Council. I dare say we'll find out soon enough. Would encroaching on to the platforms really be that much of an issue? Are there any trains booked to run non-stop through Walthamstow Central? I know that trains are booked to run non-stop in/out of service to/from Chingford depot, but I'm guessing they don't run at that high a speed even when non-stopping? It has been some months since I was last in that area and may be completely wrong! |
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Post by ashlar on Jul 24, 2014 10:41:58 GMT
The reason for the separation of the tube and NR station gated areas might be to allow the tunnel under the tracks to remain as an ungated publicly accessible walk way. I wonder how many people actually use the tunnel as a through route? I'd guess few!
Maybe numbers will increase when the long awaited Queen's Road link opens. But seems mad to inconvenience the 1000s who interchange from rail to tube every day (who will now pass though two gate lines and have to interchange via the street!) for the benefit of the tiny numbers who use the tunnel as a through route...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 13:59:49 GMT
I've quickly seen this morning that the work for the new ticket hall has started in Walthamstow Central (I don't know when it has started as I normally go from NR to the Tube but this morning I had to take the bus due to issues with NR). There is even a CGI picture on how it will look like (quite a few gates on it).
I will take some pictures tonight. Could someone tell me how to post pictures on the forum?
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Post by Chris M on Jul 29, 2014 21:32:43 GMT
Could someone tell me how to post pictures on the forum? Take a look a this tutorial which should explain it all. If it doesn't, let us know so it can be improved. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 9:13:04 GMT
I've quickly seen this morning that the work for the new ticket hall has started in Walthamstow Central (I don't know when it has started as I normally go from NR to the Tube but this morning I had to take the bus due to issues with NR). There is even a CGI picture on how it will look like (quite a few gates on it). I will take some pictures tonight. Could someone tell me how to post pictures on the forum? Actually I had another look at the picture and I am not sure if it would add much. Here is what is written on the board: Abellio Greater Anglia - YOUR NEW TICKET HALL In partnership with Network Rail and TfL work has begun to redevelop the ticket hall and introduce new automatic gates here at Walthamstow Central. This project will see both ticket halls extensively refurbished with a purpose built new ticket office on platform 2. Some benefits that this will bring to the station are: - Improved security within the station through the introduction of ticket gates and renewed and extended CCTV. - New ticket office with two sales points which can be used by all. - New dedicated London Underground entrances on each side of the station. - Additional staff to assist you with your journey. We'll keep everyone informed on these exciting improvement plans for your station over the coming weeks and months. |
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