Stratford Stations to be rezoned

[snoggle]

Not sure if this is quite the right place for a fares and ticketing issue but here goes.

The Mayor has announced that Stratford, Stratford High St and Stratford International stations will be rezoned to be zone 2/3 boundary stations with effect from January 2016. This is to support regeneration efforts in the area.

[Deleted]

I'm sure I've told this one before but when the JLE first opened loads of people travelling from Mile End would buy a ticket get to Canary Wharf from the machines which would sell them the cheapest ticket, Zone 2 only via Whitechapel and Canada Water. They'd arrive at Stratford but because they were now in Zone 3 their tickets wouldn't let them through the gateline separating the Jubilee Line platforms from the rest of the station. We'd either have to send them to the ticket office to pay the extra or tell them to go back the other way. The gateline went a while ago, I'm surprised they didn't do this back then.

[snoggle]

Jul 21, 2014 10:05:50 GMT aslefshrugged said:

I'm sure I've told this one before but when the JLE first opened loads of people travelling from Mile End would buy a ticket get to Canary Wharf from the machines which would sell them the cheapest ticket, Zone 2 only via Whitechapel and Canada Water. They'd arrive at Stratford but because they were now in Zone 3 their tickets wouldn't let them through the gateline separating the Jubilee Line platforms from the rest of the station. We'd either have to send them to the ticket office to pay the extra or tell them to go back the other way. The gateline went a while ago, I'm surprised they didn't do this back then.

The timing of this change is crucial. After May 2015 TfL will be in charge of suburban rail (Shenfield) services at Stratford with a reduced number of Greater Anglia trains stopping (compared to now). As TfL take revenue risk under the Crossrail concession (and for the tube and DLR) the whole issue of compensation for revenue loss is much simplified. I think the Mayor has said TfL's farescale applies to Crossrail so expect to see a change to fares charged out to the Z6 boundary from May next year plus changes to Freedom Pass acceptance. The same will apply to the West Anglia lines into Liverpool St with the exception of the Waltham Cross line via T Hale which stays with Greater Anglia. However we must wait and see what farescale applies T Hale to Waltham Cross as TfL fares will apply on the parallel route via Seven Sisters. I'd be surprised if there was not an alignment on to the TfL farescale.

The annual cost of £7m is probably largely an internal TfL budget / accounting issue with a negligible amount due to Greater Anglia given the stations will be on the zonal boundary and there are no intermediate stops between Stratford and Liverpool St.

[norbitonflyer]

Jul 21, 2014 10:05:50 GMT aslefshrugged said:

I'm sure I've told this one before but when the JLE first opened loads of people travelling from Mile End would buy a ticket get to Canary Wharf from the machines which would sell them the cheapest ticket, Zone 2 only via Whitechapel and Canada Water. .

Or presumably via Bow Road/Bow Church?

What will happen to Canning Town and West Ham? (and indeed Abbey Road and Star Lane?) Will travellers from Canary Wharf to Stratford have to use the DLR rather than JLE to avoid passing through Zone 3?

There are a handful of direct services on NR south of the river which go out and in again (journeys like Abbey Wood to Sidcup, New Cross Gate to Clapham Junction via Crystal Palace, St Helier to Mitcham Eastfields, Raynes Park to Twickenham, Richmond to Brentford, but this would be a first for the Underground.

[Chris M]

Journeys between Canary Wharf and Stratford via Bow will be Zone 2 only. Journeys via Canning Town will be Zones 2 and 3.
There are separate gatelines for the DLR and JLE stations at Canary Wharf so that will be a possible way of identifying which route those journeys took, including for people who change trains at Canary Wharf. I don't know how it will be possible to identify which route someone took from DLR stations in Zone 2 without route validators at Poplar, but they can't catch every journey.

[norbitonflyer]

Jul 24, 2014 18:25:37 GMT Chris M said:

.
There are separate gatelines for the DLR and JLE stations at Canary Wharf so that will be a possible way of identifying which route those journeys took, including for people who change trains at Canary Wharf. I don't know how it will be possible to identify which route someone took from DLR stations in Zone 2 without route validators at Poplar, but they can't catch every journey.

Are there separate gatelines at Stratford for the two DLR lines? How do you differentiate Limehouse to Stratford changing at Poplar from changing at Canning Town?

[Deleted]

No, the whole station is in one gateline.

[Chris M]

Jul 24, 2014 19:44:40 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Are there separate gatelines at Stratford for the two DLR lines? How do you differentiate Limehouse to Stratford changing at Poplar from changing at Canning Town?

There are multiple gatelines at Stratford, but they all feed in to one communal paid area so it is not possible to distinguish by that method. Direct DLR trains from Bank/Tower Gateway to Stratford via Bow are possible but it's a very rare service pattern, so passengers need to change trains at Poplar. Route validators there could be used to differentiate, but they'd have to be located on the platform which would enable people travelling via Canning Town to step back one train and pay a cheaper fare. So having thought about it a bit more, route validators on the high level DLR platforms at Stratford are probably the only reliable method of detection. Those platforms aren't quite as out the way as the Overground platforms at Stratford (which already have route validators) but they aren't on the route between any two other places and not many people will go out of their way to save 1 zone I wouldn't have thought.

[Deleted]

There are two gatelines at Stratford, one at the original main entrance by the Great Eastern Road/bus station and the other at the new-ish entrance by Westfield.

[Chris M]

There also now a third gateline at the eastern end of the bridge across the low-level DLR tracks that links to the westbound Central line (I've seen this descibed variously as "upper concourse" and "mezzanine level"), which leads onto the bridge to Westfield.

[sawb]

Jul 21, 2014 12:51:37 GMT snoggle said:

Jul 21, 2014 10:05:50 GMT aslefshrugged said:

I'm sure I've told this one before but when the JLE first opened loads of people travelling from Mile End would buy a ticket get to Canary Wharf from the machines which would sell them the cheapest ticket, Zone 2 only via Whitechapel and Canada Water. They'd arrive at Stratford but because they were now in Zone 3 their tickets wouldn't let them through the gateline separating the Jubilee Line platforms from the rest of the station. We'd either have to send them to the ticket office to pay the extra or tell them to go back the other way. The gateline went a while ago, I'm surprised they didn't do this back then.

The timing of this change is crucial. After May 2015 TfL will be in charge of suburban rail (Shenfield) services at Stratford with a reduced number of Greater Anglia trains stopping (compared to now). As TfL take revenue risk under the Crossrail concession (and for the tube and DLR) the whole issue of compensation for revenue loss is much simplified. I think the Mayor has said TfL's farescale applies to Crossrail so expect to see a change to fares charged out to the Z6 boundary from May next year plus changes to Freedom Pass acceptance. The same will apply to the West Anglia lines into Liverpool St with the exception of the Waltham Cross line via T Hale which stays with Greater Anglia. However we must wait and see what farescale applies T Hale to Waltham Cross as TfL fares will apply on the parallel route via Seven Sisters. I'd be surprised if there was not an alignment on to the TfL farescale.

The annual cost of £7m is probably largely an internal TfL budget / accounting issue with a negligible amount due to Greater Anglia given the stations will be on the zonal boundary and there are no intermediate stops between Stratford and Liverpool St.

When you say there will "a reduced number of Greater Anglia trains stopping (compared to now)", how much of a reduction are we talking about, or is it just because of the changes to West Anglia (to LO) and Shenfield stoppers (to Crossrail operator). 

[Chris M]

I think it's just that fewer long distance services will call at Stratford to free up space for more metro services.

[Fahad]

Jul 24, 2014 19:44:40 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Jul 24, 2014 18:25:37 GMT Chris M said:

.
There are separate gatelines for the DLR and JLE stations at Canary Wharf so that will be a possible way of identifying which route those journeys took, including for people who change trains at Canary Wharf. I don't know how it will be possible to identify which route someone took from DLR stations in Zone 2 without route validators at Poplar, but they can't catch every journey.

Are there separate gatelines at Stratford for the two DLR lines? How do you differentiate Limehouse to Stratford changing at Poplar from changing at Canning Town?

There are already quite a few possible journeys on the network where Oyster can't differentiate and just charges the minimum. One example is Richmond to Stratford, where someone going via zone 1 by LU will be charged as though they took the direct LO train avoiding it (someone who gives the system a clue about their route, however, e.g. by taking NR to Waterloo and passing through a pair of gatelines there, will be charged the appropriate fare)

[sawb]

Jul 25, 2014 14:15:22 GMT Chris M said:

I think it's just that fewer long distance services will call at Stratford to free up space for more metro services.

Let's hope not. Stratford National Rail can barely cope with current volumes of passengers as it is, without reducing the service frequency!

[Chris M]

No, the service frequency would increase. It's just that the /proportion/ of metro services that will increase