Working W&C cars to Wimbledon

[Deleted]

This statement was made, off topic, on a London Reconnections thread :
www.londonreconnections.com/2014/study-sussex-part-6-approaches-london-bridge/

"The 1940 stock of the W&C used to travel to and from Wimbledon over the LSWR main line for heavy maintenance – but could only do so if it wasn’t raining, as they were not fitted with windscreen wipers at all!"

That clearly means under its own power.
I questioned it and was referred to this site as evidence of its correctness, but can find nothing to support the claim. Rather than engage in an off-topic debate on the Reconnections site it seems more appropriate to raise it here.

From 1968 to the late 1970s I took many photographs of individual W&C cars being loco-hauled between Waterloo and Selhurst (via East Putney), sometimes via St.Helier but usually via Mitcham.
There were very few instances of W&C cars going to Wimbledon.
So the question is, did any of those work to Wimbledon under their own power?

I am well aware of various powered workings, particularly in the early years, but the question specifically relates to Waterloo to and from Wimbledon.

To offer something of possible interest, on 19th May 1965 a 3-coach (S58,S83,S57) test trip ran from Stewarts Lane to Horsham via East Putney and Epsom, and back "after repairs"(RO 7/65). As that seemed somewhat exotic at the time, even more so now, I wonder if it had anything to do with the possible use of the stock on the IoW.

[Indefatigable]

This link would certainly suggest so.

Somewhere I have a magazine picture showing a couple of cars just coming out of the depot. I shall try to find it and scan it in

[John Tuthill]

Oct 2, 2014 12:20:55 GMT @geoffsmith said:

This statement was made, off topic, on a London Reconnections thread :
www.londonreconnections.com/2014/study-sussex-part-6-approaches-london-bridge/

"The 1940 stock of the W&C used to travel to and from Wimbledon over the LSWR main line for heavy maintenance – but could only do so if it wasn’t raining, as they were not fitted with windscreen wipers at all!"

That clearly means under its own power.
I questioned it and was referred to this site as evidence of its correctness, but can find nothing to support the claim. Rather than engage in an off-topic debate on the Reconnections site it seems more appropriate to raise it here.

From 1968 to the late 1970s I took many photographs of individual W&C cars being loco-hauled between Waterloo and Selhurst (via East Putney), sometimes via St.Helier but usually via Mitcham.
There were very few instances of W&C cars going to Wimbledon.
So the question is, did any of those work to Wimbledon under their own power?

I am well aware of various powered workings, particularly in the early years, but the question specifically relates to Waterloo to and from Wimbledon.

To offer something of possible interest, on 19th May 1965 a 3-coach (S58,S83,S57) test trip ran from Stewarts Lane to Horsham via East Putney and Epsom, and back "after repairs"(RO 7/65). As that seemed somewhat exotic at the time, even more so now, I wonder if it had anything to do with the possible use of the stock on the IoW.

That can't be one anymore. When The Eurostar platforms were being built, they covered the old hoist from the W&C. The delivery of the present rolling stock was by road, with hoist now in use a the Lower Marsh end. Check ot 'You Tube' there is a film of them being delivered

[DWS]

The photo shows a car with a wind screen wiper ?

[Indefatigable]

Oct 2, 2014 13:59:35 GMT DWS said:

The photo shows a car with a wind screen wiper ?

One of the books or magazines I read stated they were fitted temporarily with them

[Deleted]

Indefatigable
Nothing on the thread you link to is sufficient to convince me, but, of course, if there are, as one would hope, dated pictures or STNs showing powered workings between Waterloo and Wimbledon that would settle it. I'm something of a Gradgrind, so without dates, documents or photographs I believe little - does upset some people I'll admit.

DWS
It does indeed show a windscreen wiper, further refuting the claim of the person on Reconnections.

[Deleted]

No wipers visible here:

Waterloo & City Car at Waterloo by 74009, on Flickr

[norbitonflyer]

Oct 2, 2014 13:47:40 GMT John Tuthill said:

That can't be done anymore. When The Eurostar platforms were being built, they covered the old hoist from the W&C.

Even if you could hoist them onto the SWML, they wouldn't work as the 1992 stock operates on the standard LU 4-rail system, not the SR 3-rail system as the old 1940 stock did. The line was re-electrified before the new stock was delivered.
(interestingly, the original 1898 stock used yet another system, with a centre rail)

[John Tuthill]

Oct 2, 2014 17:22:05 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Oct 2, 2014 13:47:40 GMT John Tuthill said:

That can't be done anymore. When The Eurostar platforms were being built, they covered the old hoist from the W&C.

Even if you could hoist them onto the SWML, they wouldn't work as the 1992 stock operates on the standard LU 4-rail system, not the SR 3-rail system as the old 1940 stock did. The line was re-electrified before the new stock was delivered.
(interestingly, the original 1898 stock used yet another system, with a centre rail)

I remember seeing a photo of the Bullied stock passing thru' Eastleigh,(under it's own power) after being out shopped with the 'Network Rail' paint job.

[phillw48]

This item shows the 1940 stock being delivered to Waterloo when new, under its own power.
www.blackcablondon.net/2014/03/05/tales-from-the-terminals-waterloo-station-part-3-the-waterloo-city-line/
There is a short film, page down a little.

[Chris M]

Oct 2, 2014 17:22:05 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Even if you could hoist them onto the SWML, they wouldn't work as the 1992 stock operates on the standard LU 4-rail system, not the SR 3-rail system as the old 1940 stock did. The line was re-electrified before the new stock was delivered.
(interestingly, the original 1898 stock used yet another system, with a centre rail)

Surely it's unique in having had three different stocks all with different, incompatible, power supply arrangements!?

[Indefatigable]

Whilst I can not find the picture in the magazine, I did accross this little piece from this website

Motorcoach 58 was used for some special CM&EE brake tests between Farnham and Alton during September 1977, probably in connection with the planned fitting of speedometers in all the motor coach cabs, though these had to be quickly suspended and the car returned to Farnham Shed in the event of rain due to the lack of windscreen wipers.



Motorcoach 58 had earlier been moved to Wimbledon Park for test equipment to be fitted, and it moved to Farnham between match wagons 24?Sep?77. The test programme involved seven return trips between Farnham and Alton, running from 26?Sep-77 to 30?Sep-77 and again the following week 3?Oct-77 to 7?Oct-77. The car was slightly damaged when being formed-up with the match wagons on 7?Oct?77 but was moved back to Waterloo 12?Oct?77 and ran a series of overnight test trips on the Waterloo & City line until 22?Oct?77 when it was returned to Wimbledon Park for the test equipment to be removed. It finally returned to Waterloo again 5?Nov?77 and went back into traffic once more.



As the cars were only designed for underground use they were not very weatherproof and efforts were made to keep them under cover when on the surface to avoid water damage to equipment.

[norbitonflyer]

Oct 2, 2014 23:01:05 GMT Chris M said:

Surely it's unique in having had three different stocks all with different, incompatible, power supply arrangements!?

The LNER/LMS joint line from Altrincham to Manchester was electrified at 1500V dc in 1931 using what were later known as class 505 units, converted to 25kvac in 1971 (class 304) and converted to tram operation at 750V dc in 1992

[roythebus]

With my 8 years experience driving on the W&C (someone had to do it), I'm not aware of any stock moves to Wimbledon Depot, that's not to say it didn't happen. There were infrequent moves to Selhurst, usually via Wimbledon then the Spratt & Winkle (Wimbledon-Mitcham-West Croydon) which has been documented on a thread on the RMweb forum.

No cars were fitted with wipers in my time on the W&C. I've read that the cars were considered for the IoW but lack of wipers and heating precluded them. There also wasn't enough of them for the proposed 7-car service.

I've seen pictures before of them working the Aton line.

[Deleted]

reganorak's posting on this thread gives a useful summary.

As I understand it :
Very few cars ever went to Wimbledon for maintenance [ Flickr > S51 in 1980 ],
none did so under their own power,
and, on at least one occasion (above), temporary windscreen wipers were fitted for a test run on the surface.

I guess I shouldn't have got so annoyed at the posting on Reconnections, but at least it has led to some interesting discussion here.

[malcolmffc]

I've given up on London Reconnections - too much uninformed speculation and power-crazy moderators who like to edit or delete half the comments.

[castlebar]

I remember seeing a solitary W&C car in Selhurst some years ago, and never saw one in Wimbledon

[brigham]

Oct 2, 2014 23:01:05 GMT Chris M said:

Surely it's unique in having had three different stocks all with different, incompatible, power supply arrangements!?

I think the Great Northern & City also qualifies. Has anywhere had four?

[norbitonflyer]

Oct 9, 2014 17:08:49 GMT brigham said:

Oct 2, 2014 23:01:05 GMT Chris M said:

Surely it's unique in having had three different stocks all with different, incompatible, power supply arrangements!?

I think the Great Northern & City also qualifies. Has anywhere had four?

GN&C actually had four stocks (to date) but as you say only (!) three different power supplies. (It had both standard and 1938 tube stock)

Some sections of the North London Line have had 4-rail, 3-rail and ac ohle, and at least five types of stock (Oerlikon, 501, 416, 313, 378).

[roythebus]

The GN&C also had the 501s converted to battery power, class 31 and 08 when BR took over! I personally worked the battery cars to Old Street, and someone I know took an 08 as far as Essex Road where it hit the tunnel roof! 31s ventured into the tunnel at Drayton Park but not too far in!