Question regarding tunnels between Drayton Park & Moorgate

[Deleted]

Last week with my travel card decided to  travel up to Drayton  Park on the mainline train  from Moorgate  as I was a bit early for meeting my friend  and I live in the Barbican,  one  stop from there

I wanted to see the station  as I read it was a former  Northern Line station back in the day...and wanted to take some pictures,  etc 

I have a question :  Are  the tunnels  and platforms  from Moorgate to  Drayton park exactly the same  ones  as they were when it was the London Undergroun? 

Here is the video I took with my phone of  the stationn:




Cheers

[John Tuthill]

Oct 15, 2014 17:08:22 GMT @skyrim100 said:

Last week with my travel card decided to  travel up to Drayton  Park on the mainline train  from Moorgate  as I was a bit early for meeting my friend  and I live in the Barbican,  one  stop from there

I wanted to see the station  as I read it was a former  Northern Line station back in the day...and wanted to take some pictures,  etc 

I have a question :  Are  the tunnels  and platforms  from Moorgate to  Drayton park exactly the same  ones  as they were when it was the London Undergroun? 

Here is the video I took with my phone of  the stationn:




Cheers

As the original tunnels were built to 'standard' size loading gauge, I think you'll find that the major alterations on handover from LT were: a) 4th rail to 3rd rail, b)alter signalling and c)alter signage.
Anyone else got something they'd like to add?

[whistlekiller2000]

The answer is yes, more or less. Of course, there's now the facility for overhead current pick up North of Drayton Park and all the old LUL signage has gone. The tunnels were always mainline size going back to the years when it was operated by the Metropolitan Railway. When you surface at Drayton Park there's a section of waste ground to the West where there used to be a small depot for the tube trains. The old tunnel apertures to and from Finsbury Park are long gone now.

This short film in colour shows the station in the sixties when the Finsbury Park subsurface section was still operational.

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2014 17:47:14 GMT John Tuthill said:

Oct 15, 2014 17:08:22 GMT @skyrim100 said:

Last week with my travel card decided to  travel up to Drayton  Park on the mainline train  from Moorgate  as I was a bit early for meeting my friend  and I live in the Barbican,  one  stop from there

I wanted to see the station  as I read it was a former  Northern Line station back in the day...and wanted to take some pictures,  etc 

I have a question :  Are  the tunnels  and platforms  from Moorgate to  Drayton park exactly the same  ones  as they were when it was the London Undergroun? 

Here is the video I took with my phone of  the stationn:




Cheers

As the original tunnels were built to 'standard' size loading gauge, I think you'll find that the major alterations on handover from LT were: a) 4th rail to 3rd rail, b)alter signalling and c)alter signage.
Anyone else got something they'd like to add?

I   noticed  (and it's in my video) that the track still has 4 rails, like the tube.... any  reason why that may have remained ?



And  where did the tragic  crash happen ? I checked which platform I took the train,.  and it was platform 9... it seems from photos   that it was the other side

@   whistlekiller2000:  That  video was amazing.... looks so different....but   I can recongnise that building with the circle  design in the middle ,  it is still there

Shame  there is no video of it from the 70's


Cheers

[superteacher]

It's probably because it's easier to leave the 4th rail there rather than removing it. However, the rail is no longer connected to the power, and it has been lowered to track level. The Moorgate accident happened in platform 9.

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2014 18:38:23 GMT superteacher said:

It's probably because it's easier to leave the 4th rail there rather than removing it. However, the rail is no longer connected to the power, and it has been lowered to track level. The Moorgate accident happened in platform 9.

Here  is a photo  I took of the track at Drayton Park :



I  wonder  if London Underground  could  claim back that line  for the Northern  Line...  seeing as  they wouldn't  have to  build anything.  I know  it's  virtually impossible...but  it's  just a thought, lol.  

Seeing as  the Emirates  Stadium is just outside  Drayton Park  station...it  would   be quite  cool

[norbitonflyer]

I think LU were glad to get rid of it - isolated from any other line as it was.

The line was originally independent, but was taken over by the Met c1913. Until 1940 it used a unique 4-rail electrification system (+ve one side of the track, -ve on the other, no centre rail)
I believe the track bed was raised in the stations between 1940 and 1975 to allow the lower-floored tube stock to be level with the platforms.

The original tunnels are in use except at Highbury & Islington where one of them is used for the Victoria Line to allow cross platform interchange, and north of Drayton Park where they are again used by the Vic at Finsbury Park - the Northern City using the connection to the GN main line that was there from the start but not used regularly until 1975.

[Hutch]

Here is a photo I took of the track at Drayton Park :

The centre rail isn't even secured to the sleepers.  What is its purpose - is it just an oversized, un-insulated, rail-shaped current return wire?

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2014 19:09:12 GMT @skyrim100 said:

Oct 15, 2014 18:38:23 GMT superteacher said:

It's probably because it's easier to leave the 4th rail there rather than removing it. However, the rail is no longer connected to the power, and it has been lowered to track level. The Moorgate accident happened in platform 9.

Here  is a photo  I took of the track at Drayton Park :



I  wonder  if London Underground  could  claim back that line  for the Northern  Line...  seeing as  they wouldn't  have to  build anything.  I know  it's  virtually impossible...but  it's  just a thought, lol.  

Seeing as  the Emirates  Stadium is just outside  Drayton Park  station...it  would   be quite  cool

If London Underground took it back then you need to rebuild Finsbury Park to separate it from Thameslink services. If your going to Highgate and beyond on a new line then it would be worth it but if your taking it to Gordon Hill then you may as well hand the line to London Overground which would not need separation from Thameslink trains.

[causton]

Oct 15, 2014 20:29:52 GMT Hutch said:

Here is a photo I took of the track at Drayton Park :

The centre rail isn't even secured to the sleepers.  What is its purpose - is it just an oversized, un-insulated, rail-shaped current return wire?

Probably just... spare rail! All over the national railway network, as closures, electrical isolations, collection, transport, storage etc costs make it actually too expensive to bother removing!

[superteacher]

You can see a similar arrangement north of Harrow and Wealdstone when the 4th rail was dropped to sleeper level after the Bakerloo stopped running to Watford Junction in 1982. I think it wasn't disconnected until 1984 / 5 when they were definitely sure that the tube trains weren't going past Harrow.

[Deleted]

A few feet off-topic, but something that had never occurred to me before, was there a depot at Drayton Park before LT took over?

[norbitonflyer]

Oct 15, 2014 21:41:24 GMT stationless said:

A few feet off-topic, but something that had never occurred to me before, was there a depot at Drayton Park before LT took over?

According to CULG the depot was always at Drayton Park. Remember that until 1940, and despite ownership by the Met from 1913, the line ran a unique electrification system so the trains were unable to leave the line under their own power. Even after conversion to LT standards, there was no electrified connection to the rest of the LT system - trains were hauled to Golders Green for major overhaul by battery locos via the unelectrified connection to Finsbury Park and the Highgate branch and, after that closed, by way of the Widened Lines (reverse at Moorgate) to and from Neasden, as seen here www.flickr.com/photos/63255278@N08/6128502626
www.flickr.com/photos/63255278@N08/5849125152.

Interesting on the video further upthread that Drayton Park still sported Metropolitan "diamond" nameboards instead of LER/LT roundels, thirty years after it became part of LT. But then, although it's nearly eighteen years (Jan 1997) since WAGN (Prism Rail) took over, and Prism was bought by National Express in 2000, and the line has subsequently also been worked by First Group (from 2006) and now Govia (from last month), Network South East branding still predominates in many places!

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2014 20:29:52 GMT Hutch said:

Here is a photo I took of the track at Drayton Park :

The centre rail isn't even secured to the sleepers.  What is its purpose - is it just an oversized, un-insulated, rail-shaped current return wire?

As I understand it, yes, that's the purpose - to keep everything at earth potential that should be, and to ensure there's a traction current return path that doesn't go through the tunnel lining.

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2014 22:02:34 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Oct 15, 2014 21:41:24 GMT stationless said:

A few feet off-topic, but something that had never occurred to me before, was there a depot at Drayton Park before LT took over?

According to CULG the depot was always at Drayton Park. Remember that until 1940, and despite ownership by the Met from 1913, the line ran a unique electrification system so the trains were unable to leave the line under their own power. Even after conversion to LT standards, there was no electrified connection to the rest of the LT system - trains were hauled to Golders Green for major overhaul by battery locos via the unelectrified connection to Finsbury Park and the Highgate branch and, after that closed, by way of the Widened Lines (reverse at Moorgate) to and from Neasden, as seen here www.flickr.com/photos/63255278@N08/6128502626
www.flickr.com/photos/63255278@N08/5849125152.

Interesting on the video further upthread that Drayton Park still sported Metropolitan "diamond" nameboards instead of LER/LT roundels, thirty years after it became part of LT. But then, although it's nearly eighteen years (Jan 1997) since WAGN (Prism Rail) took over, and Prism was bought by National Express in 2000, and the line has subsequently also been worked by First Group (from 2006) and now Govia (from last month), Network South East branding still predominates in many places!

The  London Underground roundels must have been used at Drayton Park  at some point after  the  footage in the above video, as in the Mangapps Museum , the guy has stored an old station roundel that says Drayton  Park on it beside the 1959 stock he has in there.  Here is a picture  I took :

[abe]

Also worth noting that the GN&CR had its own power station at Poole Street, which remained in operation until 1914, when the source of power was changed to Neasden power station (because of the Metropolitan Railway ownership).

The 'Drayton Park' roundel in the photo above is very odd - it's not in Johnston typeface. For that reason I'm not convinced that it is original. LT was very strict about the use of Johnston on roundels in the days that this would have been made. However, I'm prepared to stand corrected if it can be shown that this is from the line.

[Deleted]

Looking at that roundel, the station name is not in Johnston font (compare with the No Smoking sign), so methinks is not genuine...

(Edited to say posted before I saw abe's simultaneous post)

[Deleted]

Finally found a video on You Tube of Drayton Park tube station filmed in the 1970's!!

All 1938 tube stock

As you can see, there are roundels on the station then....they must have got rid of the diamond ones before this

Here is  the video:

[Harsig]

Oct 16, 2014 8:27:41 GMT abe said:

The 'Drayton Park' roundel in the photo above is very odd - it's not in Johnston typeface. For that reason I'm not convinced that it is original. LT was very strict about the use of Johnston on roundels in the days that this would have been made. However, I'm prepared to stand corrected if it can be shown that this is from the line.

It looks to me that the typeface of that roundel and the typeface of the Met diamond in the video further up the thread are identical. Therefore I suspect a cheap conversion was done, replacing the upper and lower diamond segments with upper and lower roundel segments but leaving the original name board. Of course this assumes that the roundel as pictured at Mangapps Farm was genuinely used at Drayton Park and is not something that the museum itself has made up using parts of signs on hand.

[roythebus]

All the LT signs and adverts are still there at the deep-level stations. they are hidden behind the vertical walls that were put in when the line was converted in the 1970's. I know, I worked on there on the converted class 501 battery locos down there a few times and walked the tunnel as far as Old Street.

There's an article on the Drayton Park depot on the "historic" section here. The rails in there were a lighter section and were rescued by the Ffestiniog Railway for further use. The fourth rail is indeed bonded to the running rails as n additional earth return.

[superteacher]

Oct 18, 2014 18:48:33 GMT roythebus said:

All the LT signs and adverts are still there at the deep-level stations. they are hidden behind the vertical walls that were put in when the line was converted in the 1970's. I know, I worked on there on the converted class 501 battery locos down there a few times and walked the tunnel as far as Old Street.

There's an article on the Drayton Park depot on the "historic" section here. The rails in there were a lighter section and were rescued by the Ffestiniog Railway for further use. The fourth rail is indeed bonded to the running rails as n additional earth return.

Did they leave the roundels there too? The reason I ask is that there is an Essex Road roundel at the LT museum which seems to have been rescued from the station.

[Alight]

For those who haven't seen it before, the Abandoned Stations website has a section on the disused tunnels between Drayton Park and Finsbury Park: www.abandonedstations.org.uk/Drayton_Park_station.html

I still can't quite work out whereabouts the former tunnels connect to the mainline - it doesn't appear obvious as you pass between Finsbury Park and Drayton Park on the Great Northern. Have they been completely blocked off? The link suggests they are sealed by a concrete plug but access can still be obtained through a gate.

[North End]

Oct 19, 2014 11:24:10 GMT Alight said:

For those who haven't seen it before, the Abandoned Stations website has a section on the disused tunnels between Drayton Park and Finsbury Park: www.abandonedstations.org.uk/Drayton_Park_station.html

I still can't quite work out whereabouts the former tunnels connect to the mainline - it doesn't appear obvious as you pass between Finsbury Park and Drayton Park on the Great Northern. Have they been completely blocked off? The link suggests they are sealed by a concrete plug but access can still be obtained through a gate.

Both portals are earthed over and cannot be detected from the surface. However, there is a small gate which connects between the down Moorgate line and emerges in the west side of the former northbound tunnel, just north of Drayton Park station. I should add that this gate is securely locked and also has motion detecting CCTV installed! The other end of the disused northbound tunnel has numerous cross-passage connections to the Victoria Line, which is the normal means of access to these tunnels. The Drayton Park gate appears to be purely an emergency exit / ventilation opening in what would otherwise be a dead-end tunnel.

[crusty54]

The roundel is of the type fitted in a bronze frame which is missing in the photograph and does not appear to be the same type as used at Drayton Park.

[Deleted]

Oct 19, 2014 13:49:59 GMT crusty54 said:

The roundel is of the type fitted in a bronze frame which is missing in the photograph and does not appear to be the same type as used at Drayton Park.

If you are talking   about my photograph , then they guy who owns  the collection said  it had all been given to him over the years by different companies...like  LT  and BR


Next time I go maybe  next week ,  I will ask him specifically about that sign

[Deleted]

It could also be that they had two types of roundel at the station

[crusty54]

Oct 19, 2014 13:59:15 GMT @skyrim100 said:

It could also be that they had two types of roundel at the station

Not likely as the platform is a surface type with totem signs.

Bronze frame signs are normally reserved for curved wall platforms.

[roythebus]

Oct 19, 2014 8:47:30 GMT superteacher said:

Oct 18, 2014 18:48:33 GMT roythebus said:

All the LT signs and adverts are still there at the deep-level stations. they are hidden behind the vertical walls that were put in when the line was converted in the 1970's. I know, I worked on there on the converted class 501 battery locos down there a few times and walked the tunnel as far as Old Street.

There's an article on the Drayton Park depot on the "historic" section here. The rails in there were a lighter section and were rescued by the Ffestiniog Railway for further use. The fourth rail is indeed bonded to the running rails as n additional earth return.

Did they leave the roundels there too? The reason I ask is that there is an Essex Road roundel at the LT museum which seems to have been rescued from the station.

As far as I remember yes. Unless anyone on site at the time they built the false walls was lucky enough to have a screwdriver with them at the time!

[Deleted]

Here is a picture I took at Old Street (Northern City Line ) where this one little section of the wall still has the original tiling from the London Transport days:




This  and  Essex Road are eerie....anyone  else agree? 

[superteacher]

I've always had the eerie feeling at those stations. Not the northern line side of Old Street, just the ex northern city side. You can hear a pin drop at Essex Road sometimes, it's that quiet between trains. The whole line is quite eerie in my opinion - maybe it's a legacy of the Moorgate accident.
The platforms were even more eerie when they had tungsten lighting by all accounts.