Wembley Central

[Deleted]

There is currently no service on the London Overground between Queen's Park and Wembley Central - and no service on the Bakerloo line between Queen's Park and Harrow & Wealdstone, too - because of engineering work. This means that London Overground trains are reversing south to north (or should that be up to down) at Wembley Central using the crossover just to the north of the station - a rarely performed move as far as I know. My question is, is this move controlled from Wembley Suburban PSB (I think I'm right in thinking the line is controlled from here?), or is it controlled by a ground frame? Because the simsig simulation of the PSB has it done from a ground frame and I couldn't see any signal controlling the move when I was at Wembley Central, but I also couldn't see any signs of a ground frame in operation, so I was just wondering, really, if anyone has any information on how this move is carried out these days.

Ta

[dazz285]

Groundframe situated on the north end of the down platform.

[Deleted]

Fair enough, thanks! Who works it? Is it the driver, or would there have been someone placed there to operate it during the closures to speed things up?

[superteacher]

Are drivers qualified to operate signalling equipment?

[dazz285]

Groundframe operator only

[Deleted]

Oh! Fair enough, thanks

Is that a permanent, full-time position, because it strikes me that many ground frames are not extremely well-used, or is the ground frame operator someone with many other roles, like a station supervisor, or a signalman or signal engineer or something?

[Deleted]

Yes, still Groundframe. Once the Groundframe takes control of moves, all signals in the area will be maintained at danger or placed at danger if not already so. This is done so as not to cause any conflict with what then takes over control of any move, the lamp of a Handsignaller. The Handsignaller can be in one of three positions - north end of either platform facing the train in the platform or north end of the southbound platform facing north to lamp the train into the southbound platform. However - and this is why it is really only when there is either an emergency or there are only non-tube trains in the area that it is used - with signals at danger trainstops are up and Bakerloo trains then have to trip past them activating SCAT (Speed Control After Tripping) equipment. No movement above 9mph for three minutes I am afraid! A completely different set up to Willesden Junction for example where there are many more signals.

[Deleted]

Thanks a lot

Would it not be possible to operate SCAT cut-out for something like this?

[Deleted]

Ooh no, the SCAT can only be cut out when it could be a potential reason for 'no movement' whence its cutting-out might get the train going again. As a rule of thumb, any sealed switch that has to be broken automatically puts the train out of service.

[Deleted]

Well fair enough then

[Deleted]

There was also another variation on the use of the Wembley points used during Engineering Works four or five years ago where Overground trains worked single line working on the Up road between Wembley Central and Stonebridge Park. As normal on the Up as far as Stonebridge Park, then back up to Wembley Central on the Up road to the southbound platform and then over the points and all stations north. Handsignaller additionally at Stonebridge Park station at the north end of the southbound platform - the only signal there is a Position Light Shunt (304) for us Bakerloo to cross into Depot limits. Whether the points were scotched and clipped all day for the move I do not know but there as a 'wrong-side door opening' incident at one point that day at Wembley Central.

[roboverground]

Normal practise for the local Network Rail 'MOM' (Mobile Operations Manager) to operate ground frames. such staff based at Watford Junction & Willesden.

[Deleted]

The ground frame as such at Wembley Central is a switch panel in a locked box attached to the location cabinet under the bridge on the down side. The protection for operation requires the 3 controlled signals replaced to danger these being the up platform starter at North Wembley, the down line signal south of the subway under the main line and the down platform starterat Wembley Central, the up platform starter at Wembley Central is an auto and is replaced to danger as protction for the engineering block southwards and as a limit for normal operation. The trains on the up are signalled normally to Wembley Central, with the ground frame locked normal, with the train arrived in the up platform and the required signals replaced and the down line clear to the overlap of the down platform signal at North Wembley, the ground frame release is given. The ground frame operator observes a free indication and pressing the reverse button operates the points to reverse and receives a reverse indication. After receiving permission of the signaller at Willesden Suburban (sic) he will go over to the leading cab and give the driver any necessary instructions and authority to depart. There are no signals or tripcocks to be passed so this move is not going to cause any scat operation on 72TS, there is a wrong road fixed red placed north of the crossover and has no relevence in this movement. Once the ground frame operator has observed the train to clear the crossover he will operate the points to normal on once the normal indication is received he will give back to the signaller who on locking the ground frame is able to signal the next up train to the up platform. The down line to up line is similar but slightly diferent. It is not the best of jobs to do the ground frame at Wembley Central, as the ground frame is located in a regular rat run excluding the unfortunate operators.

The time that single line working was in place to Stonebridge Park, was covered by the above except that the up platform stater at Stonebridge Park was the limit of normal working and a pilotman was provided to pilot all trains from North Wembley to Stonebridge Park and return. The ground frame operator worked to the instructions of the signller and the pilotman was only able to return from Stonebridge Park on authority of the signaller having to pass the shunt signal at Stonebridge Park.

[Deleted]

Good detailed posting there lnwrelectric. Just a qualification though with the SCAT equipment: for an Up-Down move you are right as no trainstop is passed but a Down-Up move involves moving over a trainstop. A few years back for sure but when I and several of my colleagues have been asked to reverse at Wembley Central, the trainstop has always been in the raised position and we have therefore had no choice but to 'trip' past it. Signaller and Agent always been fully aware of the 'diiferences' in stock and fully understood the delay that would accrue.

[Deleted]

Can the '72s show Wembley Central on the front, just out of interest?

[Deleted]

Yes tut, most definitely on the blinds. Displayed in a similar way to Elephant & Castle, with the 'Wembley' placed over the 'Central'.

[Deleted]

Nov 23, 2014 21:09:23 GMT @millwall01 said:

Yes tut, most definitely on the blinds. Displayed in a similar way to Elephant & Castle, with the 'Wembley' placed over the 'Central'.

Thanks