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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 15:05:15 GMT
Obviously it would be a lot easier to run the railway if you could get rid of either the passengers or the doors, but until that happy day...
I changed at Edgware Road from a Hammersmith to a Wimbledon to-day and the passenger behind me had to force open the closing doors - fortunately she was a strong, fit lass and was able to do so without taking damage.
I hear you say that if the doors were closing she shouldn't have attempted to board the train. But surely the driver should only close the doors when the train is about to depart? He didn't even have the road - the train I'd used from Baker Street departed first.
I suppose there is some idea about saving money on heating, but I think that someone has lost sight of their priorities. The railway is run for its passengers, surely. Moreover, let's suppose she had been hurt - I don't think that the railway's insurers would be very impressed about trying to resist her claim.
What do people think?
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class411
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Post by class411 on Nov 12, 2014 15:25:25 GMT
You don't say which stock was involved.
With the S7 (and 8) stock, the doors close themselves after short period.
It's a royal pain if you are waiting at Hammersmith for SBM because the logical place to sit is at the near end (Hammersmith), and the doors are continually opening and closing because about 50% of people always get in the first set of doors (presumably the 50% who don't understand signalling, at all).
It's quite possible to sit there for five minutes with the doors continually trying to close but never actually getting as far as meeting in the middle!
They really need a detector so that the door only attempt to close if no one has passed through them for the triggering interval.
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Post by theblackferret on Nov 12, 2014 15:30:13 GMT
Obviously it would be a lot easier to run the railway if you could get rid of either the passengers or the doors, but until that happy day... I changed at Edgware Road from a Hammersmith to a Wimbledon to-day and the passenger behind me had to force open the closing doors - fortunately she was a strong, fit lass and was able to do so without taking damage. I hear you say that if the doors were closing she shouldn't have attempted to board the train. But surely the driver should only close the doors when the train is about to depart? He didn't even have the road - the train I'd used from Baker Street departed first. I suppose there is some idea about saving money on heating, but I think that someone has lost sight of their priorities. The railway is run for its passengers, surely. Moreover, let's suppose she had been hurt - I don't think that the railway's insurers would be very impressed about trying to resist her claim. What do people think? Well, unless you were in the cab of this train, how do you know for sure the t/op hadn't got the road & appropriate signal and that's why he'd closed the doors in the first place? There is also a timetable to be maintained and I believe station stands have a limit, regardless of whether or not the train is signalled to proceed. I have to say, no, she should not have been trying to board like that. For a start, she's endangering her own safety and potentially any station staff who might have needed to try and stop her being dragged along if her clothing was caught and the train took off. For the sake of what? Five minutes at most. I understand your viewpoint entirely, but her action is the same as someone jumping in their car and driving at 37mph in a 30 limit, because their personal timetable is running late; risky, and not necessarily just to themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 15:48:10 GMT
To be fair, you can clearly see the starting signals at Edgware Road.
I could write an essay, but I'm not going to, because there's just no need. Suffice it to say, the doors do close automatically to prevent a catastrophic waste of energy now the trains have air con, as well as your traditional heaters. Thus the energy meant to be spent heating or cooling the train is not lost to the outside world. When this happens, the train remains lit up like a Christmas tree so that it's apparent that the doors aren't closing for good and you can just press that button and they will open again. It's not sensible to have the doors wide open at a terminus, you won't see it on the mainline, you shouldn't see it on LU.
No never, ever, ever throw limbs in the way of doors, you're a danger to yourself, you could damage the doors and **** the service and you'll end up delaying a whole train full of passengers to save yourself 2 minutes. Once those chimes sound, it means the doors are closing and you should not attempt to board that train. Now I'm not overzealous about this, I mean, I'm regularly perhaps a little bit naughty, especially as I live at Roding Valley, where trains are once every 20 minutes and, yeah, if I'm making my way to the train and I'm two strides away when the chimes go, yeah I'll hop onto that train and no harm done. It's not necessarily to be recommended and maybe one or two of our T/Op friends might feel that even there I'm taking a few liberties and I should get my lazy behind out of bed two minutes earlier next time, but I think we can all understand hopping onto a train that's right in front of you, that you need to catch, if the chimes have only just started. Those doors don't close instantly and it's probably a bit like the amber light on the road. Arguably stopping dead in those circumstances could cause more harm than good. But you should not be trying to force the doors open. And actually nobody can do that, well, not unless you're one of those world's strongest man/woman types, you can't. The S stock have sensitive edges and the affected doors will re-open - I think automatically - in those circumstances.
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Nov 12, 2014 16:44:11 GMT
Tut you may be able to see the signals at Edgware Road ( H & C ) but most passengers do not have a clue about signals and what they mean.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 17:09:49 GMT
Absolutely, sorry, I should have made it clearer that I was specifically addressing our friend theblackferret's question: Well, unless you were in the cab of this train, how do you know for sure the t/op hadn't got the road & appropriate signal and that's why he'd closed the doors in the first place?
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North End
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Post by North End on Nov 12, 2014 17:31:09 GMT
Obviously it would be a lot easier to run the railway if you could get rid of either the passengers or the doors, but until that happy day... I changed at Edgware Road from a Hammersmith to a Wimbledon to-day and the passenger behind me had to force open the closing doors - fortunately she was a strong, fit lass and was able to do so without taking damage. I hear you say that if the doors were closing she shouldn't have attempted to board the train. But surely the driver should only close the doors when the train is about to depart? He didn't even have the road - the train I'd used from Baker Street departed first. I suppose there is some idea about saving money on heating, but I think that someone has lost sight of their priorities. The railway is run for its passengers, surely. Moreover, let's suppose she had been hurt - I don't think that the railway's insurers would be very impressed about trying to resist her claim. What do people think? If it was an S stock, the doors close after a preset period in order to preserve the temperature inside the car. So done very much with the passenger in mind. Simple use of the open button would have re-opened the doors. However, no one should be forcing doors open except in emergency. Apart from the fact that it can damage the doors which might cause the train to be taken out of service (making the culprit very popular with other passengers), there is always the possibility of ending up with an item of clothing caught. If the driver doesn't notice, the person could be dragged to their death - at which point the last consideration will be insurance claims. The safety systems are there to protect against accidents, they are not there to allow people to force doors open. The passenger concerned did not *have* to force open the doors, she made a choice, which as well as being a foolish choice, was also illegal.
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Post by peterc on Nov 12, 2014 17:54:32 GMT
Perhaps she is related to the people I have seen at Baker Street who walk down the platform looking for an open door rather than pressing the button to open one.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 17:55:35 GMT
Frankly, these are the kinds of replies I expected.
The next time I see a passenger struggling through the doors I shall push the emergency lever (f*ck the timetable) and when confronted by a staff member I'll tell them that this Forum required me to do so, because if forcing the doors is a criminal offence then failing to do what I can to help the Transport Police is also a criminal offence. You can't have one without the other. Is that what you want your customers to do?
Is aircon really necessary on subsurface lines? It seems to me that TfL was conned by the manufacturer of S7/8 stock. Can't you just switch it off at this time of year? Especially when dwelling at a terminus.
I started this thread by suggesting that staff found passengers an impediment to the running of the railway. Everything I have read confirms me in that view.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 18:00:03 GMT
Blame the Platform Train Interface
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 12, 2014 18:29:49 GMT
The extreme reaction isn't really going to help anyone: pasengers do force the doors - maybe they didn't hear or understand the chimes? - but they do it at their own risk. If the doors can be damaged by such action they need redesigning.
Do I understand the doors close automatically (i.e not under driver control)? This doesn't seem a very good idea: there may be someone manhandling something on board who can't complete or abort the process during the chime sequence. (Remember Hixon) Surely the doors should never be closed without someone checking it is safe to do so?
"When this happens, the train remains lit up like a Christmas tree so that it's apparent that the doors aren't closing for good and you can just press that button and they will open again".
But is it apparent? As has already been mentioned, most passengers don't understand the signals: why do you expect them to understand the difference between doors closing to keep you cosy, and doors closing because we're off?
And as for the "only five minutes" point. Only the passenger knows how vital those five minutes are: if it means a missed connection it can suddenly become two hours, or even next day. A delay into Paddington may well turn a comfortable transit to Kings Cross into a very close shave, through no fault of the passenger.
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Post by crusty54 on Nov 12, 2014 18:34:46 GMT
If the doors close with door buttons lit they will open again if you touch the button
If not lit stand clear
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Post by superteacher on Nov 12, 2014 19:08:13 GMT
Frankly, these are the kinds of replies I expected. The next time I see a passenger struggling through the doors I shall push the emergency lever (f*ck the timetable) and when confronted by a staff member I'll tell them that this Forum required me to do so, because if forcing the doors is a criminal offence then failing to do what I can to help the Transport Police is also a criminal offence. You can't have one without the other. Is that what you want your customers to do? Is aircon really necessary on subsurface lines? It seems to me that TfL was conned by the manufacturer of S7/8 stock. Can't you just switch it off at this time of year? Especially when dwelling at a terminus. I started this thread by suggesting that staff found passengers an impediment to the running of the railway. Everything I have read confirms me in that view. Most of us are not LU staff on this forum. However, it's common sense that if you see a door closing, you don't try to board. If you do, then you deserve any consequence they may arise. If you pulled an alarm every time a passenger had an issue with a door, there would be no train service. I'd like to see you try to close the doors at, for example, Leytonstone westbound in the morning peak. There is a near continual flow of passengers up the stairs to the platform, and if you waited for a clear moment, the service would be in severe delays mode before you know it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 19:16:33 GMT
If the doors close with door buttons lit they will open again if you touch the button If not lit stand clear For a (first time) passenger just going to catch a train at (enter name of station where this happens), how are they expected to know this?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 19:32:28 GMT
Do I understand the doors close automatically (i.e not under driver control)? This doesn't seem a very good idea: there may be someone manhandling something on board who can't complete or abort the process during the chime sequence. (Remember Hixon) Surely the doors should never be closed without someone checking it is safe to do so? From www.lurs.org.uk/articles10_htm_files/sstock.pdf: I think it's a 45 second delay and then they close with chimes and everything, but obviously can be immediately re-opened and will also re-open themselves if something is trapped. Obstacle detection may be used to prevent the doors from auto-closing if somebody is in the way, although I'm pretty sure I've been standing in the doorway to get a view of some feature or other and had to dart back in with the chimes. "When this happens, the train remains lit up like a Christmas tree so that it's apparent that the doors aren't closing for good and you can just press that button and they will open again". But is it apparent? As has already been mentioned, most passengers don't understand the signals: why do you expect them to understand the difference between doors closing to keep you cosy, and doors closing because we're off? And as for the "only five minutes" point. Only the passenger knows how vital those five minutes are: if it means a missed connection it can suddenly become two hours, or even next day. A delay into Paddington may well turn a comfortable transit to Kings Cross into a very close shave, through no fault of the passenger. Well there was a lot of publicity about this - it's still there in fact - and it's similar in operation to all other modern passenger door operation systems, but of course many will not have got the memo. My point was simply to say that you shouldn't be throwing yourself in harm's way like that, you could easily do yourself an injury. Really you could, people have been badly hurt and then "only five minutes" is gonna be a hell of a lot more. If the doors are closing then unless you're almost on the train, you should stand clear of the doors. If you're desperate you might get lucky if it's obvious you were really hoping to catch that train. I've seen drivers open up where people have just missed the Hainault train at Woodford for example, but that has to depend on the circumstances, if drivers waited for everyone nobody would ever get anywhere. People need to take a bit of responsibility for their own safety and their own journey when they're out on the tube. The tube has an excellent safety record, but that's not helped by people throwing themselves at closing doors. So whether the doors are closing to keep those already onboard comfy, or because it's time to go, my message is, keep your limbs out of the way. Then, obviously, if you're lucky and it was just for cosiness, the doors can then be opened again. If it's the person's first time on the S stock and they really haven't worked out what the lit-up buttons and big yellow door status lights mean, then chances are they'll work it out when someone else comes along and opens a door, or alternatively, most people (especially those desperate enough to throw limbs in harm's way) will have a little jab or two at those buttons anyway. But if not, then I'm sorry for them, but there's only so much you can do. There may not even have been a T/Op on the front at that time. And anyway, it's not good to have the doors wide-open at a terminus for ten minutes exposing everyone inside to the elements, there's just no need for it. The only thing I would say is a bit of consistency in always making an announcement before closing up to leave a terminus would be good.
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Post by theblackferret on Nov 12, 2014 20:34:42 GMT
Frankly, these are the kinds of replies I expected. The next time I see a passenger struggling through the doors I shall push the emergency lever (f*ck the timetable) and when confronted by a staff member I'll tell them that this Forum required me to do so, because if forcing the doors is a criminal offence then failing to do what I can to help the Transport Police is also a criminal offence. You can't have one without the other. Is that what you want your customers to do? Is aircon really necessary on subsurface lines? It seems to me that TfL was conned by the manufacturer of S7/8 stock. Can't you just switch it off at this time of year? Especially when dwelling at a terminus. I started this thread by suggesting that staff found passengers an impediment to the running of the railway. Everything I have read confirms me in that view. I've never worked for LT or TfL, ditto most of the people on here. But I do think passengers are best catered for by trying to keep most of them warm and by sticking to a timetable, and therefore as near to pro bono public as we can get. If that train had sat there, doors open for the person you mentioned, how many already on it might have lost their connection/appointment time? If you are going to wait for her, why should you not await the next latecomer, or the one after that, or number 4,5,6,7 etc on the list? Where would you draw the line to get a level playing-field? I expect to be treated well by TfL when on a Tube train & generally have been. But I also expect the operation of the train to be in the hands of TfL staff, and not at passenger's whims.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Nov 12, 2014 20:52:58 GMT
Frankly, these are the kinds of replies I expected. So why ask then? The next time I see a passenger struggling through the doors I shall push the emergency lever (f*ck the timetable) and when confronted by a staff member I'll tell them that this Forum required me to do so... From the forum "landing" page:And also:I think that makes it quite clear that Forum doesn't require you to do anything.However, the TfL Railway Byelaws state <<10(6)>>:I seem to remember that there is a notice by the doors instructing you what to do if you become aware of a person stuck in a door - I suggest you do that an if challenged you can then point to the notice.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 12, 2014 21:29:09 GMT
If that train had sat there, doors open for the person you mentioned, how many already on it might have lost their connection/appointment time? It wasn't going anywhere soon, but the passenger wasn't to know that. Even if you understand the system, you won't know whether the doors will be able to be re-opened until they have closed and the lights stay on. And many people won't understand the system - Look at how many people wait for doors to open by themselves rather than push the button - or push the button when the doors will open anyway.
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North End
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Post by North End on Nov 12, 2014 21:42:07 GMT
Frankly, these are the kinds of replies I expected. The next time I see a passenger struggling through the doors I shall push the emergency lever (f*ck the timetable) and when confronted by a staff member I'll tell them that this Forum required me to do so, because if forcing the doors is a criminal offence then failing to do what I can to help the Transport Police is also a criminal offence. You can't have one without the other. Is that what you want your customers to do? Is aircon really necessary on subsurface lines? It seems to me that TfL was conned by the manufacturer of S7/8 stock. Can't you just switch it off at this time of year? Especially when dwelling at a terminus. I started this thread by suggesting that staff found passengers an impediment to the running of the railway. Everything I have read confirms me in that view. At the end of the day, if you decide to operate the alarm without good reason then it's yourself and other passengers, on your own and other trains, that you are delaying. Most passengers manage to use the system without causing issues, the small minority who do most certainly are an impediment to the remainder who show courtesy to their fellow passengers by not delaying them. I don't see why you feel this is a staff versus passengers issue, it's not the staff being delayed.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 22:12:31 GMT
Obviously I was being sarcastic when I suggested pulling the emergency lever.
The serious point is that the Underground is operating some stock fitted with door opening buttons which it expects its passengers to use, and other stock so fitted where it expects them not to. And to place aircon functioning above passenger convenience at termini (when we have lived without aircon on the Circle for over 150 years) is not a customer-oriented approach to running a railway.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 22:15:00 GMT
If that train had sat there, doors open for the person you mentioned, how many already on it might have lost their connection/appointment time? It wasn't going anywhere soon, but the passenger wasn't to know that. Even if you understand the system, you won't know whether the doors will be able to be re-opened until they have closed and the lights stay on. And many people won't understand the system - Look at how many people wait for doors to open by themselves rather than push the button - or push the button when the doors will open anyway. On the S stock the lights goes out as soon as the drive presses the door close button.
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Post by Chris W on Nov 12, 2014 22:27:42 GMT
Obviously it would be a lot easier to run the railway if you could get rid of either the passengers or the doors, but until that happy day... I changed at Edgware Road from a Hammersmith to a Wimbledon to-day and the passenger behind me had to force open the closing doors - fortunately she was a strong, fit lass and was able to do so without taking damage. I hear you say that if the doors were closing she shouldn't have attempted to board the train. But surely the driver should only close the doors when the train is about to depart? He didn't even have the road - the train I'd used from Baker Street departed first. I suppose there is some idea about saving money on heating, but I think that someone has lost sight of their priorities. The railway is run for its passengers, surely. Moreover, let's suppose she had been hurt - I don't think that the railway's insurers would be very impressed about trying to resist her claim. What do people think? Some years ago I used to commute from South Wimbledon to Bank. There were numerous times at Bank, when alighting, by the time passengers had stopped trying to board before those needing to alight at least 10-15 seconds would have passed. Then passengers needing to get off would try to negotiate their way past those wishing to stay on board. There were numerous occasions when the T/Op would initiate the button the close the doors with myself, having been sat behind the cab, had only stood up with a long queue of passengers also trying to alight in front of me. What would then happen for the next minute would be passengers holding the doors open for one another until we had alighted from the stop we wanted to get out at. With no passengers having successfully embarked, the same sorry story would be repeated when the next train arrived... with tensions rising ! The ultimate issue is that too many people are trying to use the services, with TfL having to find availability through increasing services on already congested routes... There is a finite amount of people that will fit into any given space...
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Nov 12, 2014 22:45:03 GMT
Some years ago I used to commute from South Wimbledon to Bank. There were numerous times at Bank, when alighting, by the time passengers had stopped trying to board before those needing to alight at least 10-15 seconds would have passed. Then passengers needing to get off would try to negotiate their way past those wishing to stay on board. There were numerous occasions when the T/Op would initiate the button the close the doors with myself, having been sat behind the cab, had only stood up with a long queue of passengers also trying to alight in front of me. What would then happen for the next minute would be passengers holding the doors open for one another until we had alighted from the stop we wanted to get out at. With no passengers having successfully embarked, the same sorry story would be repeated when the next train arrived... with tensions rising ! Having spent a few months recently commuting from Debden, there were several occasions where I had to wait for the 2nd or occasionally 3rd train before I could board a northbound train at Bank. Most often I walked from Liverpool Street instead, but there were occasions when I was unable to alight there and so ended up at Bank (and once I had to double back from St Paul's!)
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Post by andypurk on Nov 13, 2014 1:00:19 GMT
The serious point is that the Underground is operating some stock fitted with door opening buttons which it expects its passengers to use, and other stock so fitted where it expects them not to. It's not really a serious point, as on most mainline trains passengers also need to push the button to open the door. If the buttons are not in use, then why does it really matter as all the doors will open. For the S-stock, as all the doors open for a normal station stop and only close automatically after a delay, whilst waiting, is it really a big issue? Air-conditioning on the sub-surfaces lines is clearly needed and is definitely customer-oriented. Whether the doors are closed to keep the heat in during the winter or the heat out during the summer, passengers will be more comfortable. The 1992 stock on the Central line has a similar system, to maintain heat in the winter at termini, except here it is the driver who closes most of the doors on the train using the 'selective close' and it is not automatic.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2014 1:08:05 GMT
The old Cs similarly had a system for closing all but one set of doors in each car at termini during the winter.
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Post by wimblephil on Nov 13, 2014 2:59:23 GMT
The old Cs similarly had a system for closing all but one set of doors in each car at termini during the winter. I think the D-Stock does too...?
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Post by Chris M on Nov 13, 2014 4:51:15 GMT
The serious point is that the Underground is operating some stock fitted with door opening buttons which it expects its passengers to use, and other stock so fitted where it expects them not to. It's not really a serious point, as on most mainline trains passengers also need to push the button to open the door. If the buttons are not in use, then why does it really matter as all the doors will open. For the S-stock, as all the doors open for a normal station stop and only close automatically after a delay, whilst waiting, is it really a big issue? The DLR and London Overground trains require buttons to be pushed to open the doors (except the one the PSA is operating the train from) in all circumstances. This does sometimes confuse people who expect the doors to open automatically like on the Underground, but they soon get the hang of it. Regardless of who opened them, if the doors have started closing then you are too late to use them. The chimes last 3 seconds before the doors start to close, so if you are further away than 2 seconds when they start you are too late.
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Post by AndrewS on Nov 13, 2014 9:55:37 GMT
Surely most people regard the "Doors closing" alarm as a final warning to board the train, not an instruction to stand obediently back and let the train leave without them? It's just human nature, whatever LU might like to happen.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Nov 13, 2014 12:11:02 GMT
Trying to force closing doors open is symptomatic of the public's growing incomprehensible (to me anyway) need to be somewhere yesterday. This behaviour becomes even more ridiculous when there are trains every two, three or four minutes. The irony of course is that you could end up making yourself, and the rest of the passengers on the train, even later by such irresponsible actions.
Theblackferret hits the nail on the head quite succinctly when he draws our attention to where the line should be drawn. Just how many latecomers would you be prepared to tolerate continually forcing closing doors? Better none at all than be unfair to 2, 3, 4 in succession.
Regarding air conditioning.......if that isn't for the passengers benefit then what is exactly? It helps to keep people cool in summer (reducing the unpleasant sweaty stink that still pervades parts of the underground that doesn't have it) and warm in winter when it's needed, and I would expect these two things alone lead to a reduction in angry passenger incidents. As a comparison, my road rage disappeared years ago with the purchase of my first air conditioned car.
People need to chill out a bit and stop racing themselves into the ground. There's no need for it at all really is there? Not when you can show a bit of dignity instead of embarrassing yourself flailing your arms and legs about forcing doors. And all by just waiting patiently for a couple more minutes.........
PS. Like just about everybody else on this thread, I've never worked for any transport company, ever. I'm just a normal member of the public who finds the selfish actions of those who would hold up a train for, most usually no good reason rather tiresome. I'm at a loss to understand how we've all suddenly been elevated to LUL employment status without having an interview? :-)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2014 18:06:06 GMT
It's not really a serious point, as on most mainline trains passengers also need to push the button to open the door. If the buttons are not in use, then why does it really matter as all the doors will open. For the S-stock, as all the doors open for a normal station stop and only close automatically after a delay, whilst waiting, is it really a big issue? The DLR and London Overground trains require buttons to be pushed to open the doors (except the one the PSA is operating the train from) in all circumstances. This does sometimes confuse people who expect the doors to open automatically like on the Underground, but they soon get the hang of it. Regardless of who opened them, if the doors have started closing then you are too late to use them. The chimes last 3 seconds before the doors start to close, so if you are further away than 2 seconds when they start you are too late. When the doors close at termini for the benefit of the aircon, there is no audible warning.
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