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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2015 9:09:27 GMT
Having watched an episode of Porridge in which a train with compartment stock was featured, it seems to me that each compartment could accommodate 8-10 passengers (4-5 each side of the compartment) in a similar amount of space occupied by 8 passengers on modern open saloon stock. My question is why compartment stock was considered undesirable to the point where it was replaced nationwide by an open saloon arrangement?
My dad used to travel on an overnight train, not a sleeper train, around 40 years ago and he says he was always well chuffed to have a warm and toasty compartment all to himself.
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Post by domh245 on Jan 12, 2015 9:36:32 GMT
There is the security risk - if you are in a compartment, only the people there can see you if you are attacked, as opposed to everyone in the carriage if you are in non-compartment stock. There is also the time factor, finding an empty compartment, or even just opening the extra door if you are exiting through the corridor side will add extra time to the station stops, not a particularly good thing in the ever-busier rail network that exists now. And whilst, I think about it, the introduction of sliding doors as opposed to slam doors will also have been a death nail for it, as you can't really put a sliding door mechanism on every compartment because you will:
a) run out of space
b) add a lot of weight to the car
c) increase the chance of something breaking
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Jan 12, 2015 9:51:24 GMT
Sorry William but 4, not 5 was the maximum. And 4 became a squeeze as people got broader and wore thicker clothing in post-war years.
The 3 already sitting resented a 4th person trying to sit down
And that was before the days of mobility scooters, fat carts, and baby buggies which you simply cannot get into compartment stock
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Post by brigham on Jan 12, 2015 10:10:41 GMT
I've been trying to design a corridor lavatory (compartment) layout for the Amersham service ever since the S-stock appeared. It can be done, but I'm still waiting for a breakthrough.
On the Met, 'Open' or 'Saloon' types are called 'Car Stock', and compartment types are called 'Stock'. I can't bring to mind any corridor stock in use on the Met. Any ideas?
The Amersham service is in danger of being eclipsed in terms of speed and comfort by the Marylebone trains, despite them being non-electrified. Patronage needs to be carefully monitored, if the spectre of cutbacks is to be avoided.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 12, 2015 11:14:18 GMT
Sorry William but 4, not 5 was the maximum. And that was before the days of mobility scooters, fat carts, and baby buggies which you simply cannot get into compartment stock Without a corridor, six-a-side was normal on Southern Region EPB and SUB stock - and even on the 4DDs on the side of the compartment without the steps. And of course in the good old days there was a guards van for prams, wheelchairs, bicycles, large items of luggage, and any standing passengers who couldn't get into the compartments. A 4SUB could seat 468 in a four-car unit, a 4DD 552. Their modern successors only get 544 seats in an eight-car train! I've been trying to design a corridor lavatory (compartment) layout for the Amersham service ever since the S-stock appeared. It can be done, but I'm still waiting for a breakthrough. A-stock prototype 17000 had a layout with sliding doors and a side corridor (although no lavatory, and compartment partitions go no higher than the seat backs). Described here. www.lurs.org.uk/articles11_htm_files/02%20sept%2011%2050%20YEARS%20AGO.pdf. Newsreel footage here www.britishpathe.com/video/new-london-tube-train-coaches/query/metropolitan+lineThe Amersham service is in danger of being eclipsed in terms of speed and comfort by the Marylebone trains, despite them being non-electrified. Patronage needs to be carefully monitored, if the spectre of cutbacks is to be avoided. For Amersham/Ricky themselves, many will prefer the faster Chiltern service - especially for passengers not wanting to go beyond Baker Street. But the Met stock calls at many places Chiltern doesn't. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2015 15:06:16 GMT
For Amersham/Ricky themselves, many will prefer the faster Chiltern service - especially for passengers not wanting to go beyond Baker Street. But the Met stock calls at many places Chiltern doesn't. Surely the Met service could be modified slightly to allow an hourly fast Baker Street-Harrow-Rickmansworth-Amersham service in the appropriate direction during the peak (two fasts per peak perhaps). Depart Amersham on the hour, Rickmansworth 8 past, Harrow 21 past, Arrive Baker Street 35 past |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jan 12, 2015 15:17:37 GMT
This is not RIPAS, please can we keep this thread to an historical discussion.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 17, 2015 8:02:32 GMT
I personally believe that aside from personal safety there is a desire to cram in as many people as possible and an open saloon achieves this better.
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Post by crusty54 on Jan 17, 2015 8:06:27 GMT
You could also get 5 or so standing passengers in the compartment during peak hours.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2015 23:09:11 GMT
As a teenage guy I discovered how good compartment stock was one night while on the mail train to London. I joined at Whitland (I know it was a really late service back then) and although it by-paased Swansea via the loop it took the scenic route via Bristol and various points south of the normal Swindon route arriving in London around 5.30 or 6 am. I met someone on the train... and both being young and ... well lets say that todays generation will never have a similar experience lol We dropped the blinds on the corridor side of the compartment and just got on with things. Happy days!
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Post by spsmiler on May 30, 2015 23:29:39 GMT
Still remember a balmy summer's eve travelling home from Liverpool St to Ilford... I had the compartment to myself and both door windows were wide open... I did not mind one jot that both lightbulbs had failed... a fantastic journey speeding (70mph+?) though the east end. Alas, I was joined by other passengers at Stratford, but Ilford was the next stop, barely 5 minutes away. This photo was taken inside one of these compartments whilst it was still possible... www.flickr.com/photos/citytransportinfo/15597339121/in/album-72157647862030446/ |
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 8:34:03 GMT
Ah, compartment stock. A late night train could offer more privacy than you'd get at home in your parents' house. I remember one very enjoyable trip with my first girlfriend on a non-stopper between Basildon and Barking. I was only 18 so I probably had my clothes back on by the time we'd past Laindon mind.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 31, 2015 13:03:40 GMT
I remember one very enjoyable trip with my first girlfriend on a non-stopper between Basildon and Barking. . Cue jokes about getting out at Upney. My first girlfriend never let me go beyond Zone 2.......... |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on May 31, 2015 14:49:03 GMT
Ahem,
Can we think of any other benefits?
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class411
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Post by class411 on May 31, 2015 17:17:52 GMT
"This forum operates a policy whereby if it's not suitable for a 13-year-old or younger to read, it is not suitable for this forum."
So, discussion of the mathematics of general relativity are right out the window.
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Post by tjw on May 31, 2015 19:13:20 GMT
For interesting historical details about the advantages and disadvantages of compartment stock it will be well worth reading about the Southern Railway and its internal discussions... If only I could remember the references.
Being a sometime railway carriage joiner I will make a few points,
While the horrible airline style seating in open saloons is a new invention, open saloons are not. The LMS in the 1930's were building open saloon stock similar to that found in Mk1 EMU's and even recent DMU / EMU stock.
The earliest designs of railway carriage were based on horse drawn carriages, a few mounted side by side on a railway underframe became the first railway carriages. With long distance services especially with more modern steam locomotives travelling non stop, the toilet and refreshment breaks were no longer desirable, access to toilets and open saloon dining carriages soon appeared.
For most of railway history, compartment carriages have been used for short distance commuting (Metropolitan / SR etc.) and it is only recently that this design has disappeared.
Large numbers of seats and quick loading and unloading were the key reasons the SR kept building compartment stock. Safety is not really a problem and compartment stock does seem to be popular.
For longer distance services access to toilets / refreshment cars are very important and so corridor stock, with open saloons for the dining cars have been normal for over 100 years. Loading unloading time is not really a problem in these services so the extra platform time needed will not impact the service too much.
Of course on the modern railway we don't care if passengers have to stand for ages, and no one seems to worry about dangerously overloaded railway carriages. We note that people like to stand next too and block the doors so we take out a few more seats... convenient for wheelchair users if they can find the room, the one lift is working, and a member of staff is around with a ramp!
Sadly we are now stuck with a style of stock (S stock / modern EMU) that is o.k for medium length journeys, in the middle of the day, but unsuitable for peak hours, and longer distance services.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 31, 2015 19:50:13 GMT
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Post by domh245 on May 31, 2015 20:09:52 GMT
That isn't airline seating, that is bay seating (sans tables) This is airline seating: Northern class 156 |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on May 31, 2015 20:34:24 GMT
That's not airline seating! This is airline seating:  How to ruin an HST, courtesy of First Great Western. |
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Post by philthetube on May 31, 2015 21:21:52 GMT
Swings and roundabouts, do you prefer tables and people standing down the aisle or airline seating? First did not spend cash changing seating for fun.
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Post by theblackferret on May 31, 2015 22:16:09 GMT
The problem for FGW & co is the same as it has been for much of the last 20 years at least.
More and more people want to catch trains, so how do you get them literally on board?
Without overloading busy stretches of lines especially with extra trains?
And keep the shareholders happy?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 31, 2015 22:51:01 GMT
If we had a private railway, more and/or longer trains (with upgrades to infrastructure as required) would be being run, the operator having invested to make more profit.
If we had a public service railway, more and/or longer trains (with upgrades to infrastructure as required) would be being run, the operator (government) having invested to reduce overcrowding, add capacity and reap the benefits to the wider economy.
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Post by philthetube on Jun 1, 2015 0:29:09 GMT
If you run a private railway and can get 1000 people on one train with half standing or 1000 people on 2 trains, all seated and charge the same fares which would you chose?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 0:32:11 GMT
If you run a private railway and can get 1000 people on one train with half standing or 1000 people on 2 trains, all seated and charge the same fares which would you chose? Are you assuming we own all the infrastructure as well - or, at least, don't share any tracks with anyone else - and so don't need to worry about availability of paths? |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jun 1, 2015 9:27:51 GMT
That isn't airline seating, that is bay seating (sans tables) Look more carefully - the dmu has face-to-back unidirectional seating all facing the same way (towards the driver's cab). This was the normal arrangement for low-density dmus (classes 100-114). The 1938 stock layout has one face to face bay each side of the gangway, with another pair of seats behind the ones forming the bay, like this. \- \- -/ -/ For the 1959/62 builds the layout was changed to two bays \- - /\- -/ |
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Post by domh245 on Jun 1, 2015 9:37:38 GMT
Oops so it is. Guess I wasn't really paying attention last night!
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Post by peterc on Jun 1, 2015 18:34:27 GMT
In non corridor stock compartments were great for packing in the seats but a pig for those who ended up standing. Commuting from Shenfield and later Billericay I would go for one of the saloons which at least had leaning space against the high seat backs. On longer distances compartments were very nice if you weren't struggling to get cases through the door which always tried to slide closed again. For an inter city journey I like to have a table. A compartment did have a romantic connotation for me too as a teenager  |
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Post by jacko1 on Jul 27, 2015 16:09:51 GMT
apart from the aspect of safety,i know only to well of the problems of compartment stock,having been a driver on the lt&s driving the old 302s,308s we had a terrible problem with vandalism.compartments were wrecked so many times.when they converted the units to open stock,there was a dramatic fall in incidents,so win win.
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Post by jacko1 on Jul 27, 2015 16:18:04 GMT
as a ex driver on the lt&s driving the old 302s and 308s units,i can only say that apart from the safety issue of compartment stock,the other major problem was vandalism. they regularly got smashed up as the Darwin candidates were on their own and unobserved. when they converted the units to open plan,the vandalism was cut down overnight.
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Post by grahamhewett on Jul 27, 2015 16:24:26 GMT
From an operator's point of view, compartment stock was a real bind - making sure all the doors were closed before departure and then there was the problem of ticket checks ... (I did once see a ticket check on a T stock train - a fearsome sight as dozens of inspectors simultaneously boarded the train).
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