TfL go to market place to replace Oyster Cards

[snoggle]

TfL have taken the first step in the procurement process to replace the current Oyster Card system and switch it to one which works with the new "back room system" used to process Contactless Payment Cards.

It is worth considering some of the aspects like it is entirely processed on line and will be the equivalent of a TfL Payment Card but only for travel and not other goods (unlike systems like Octopus in HK or Suica in Tokyo which can be used for low value non transport transactions).

Railway Gazette article

EU Tenders info

[class411]

Were we ever told why the advertised enhancement to Oyster cards to allow payment for other low value goods and services was shelved. I thought it was an excellent idea as so many people have Oyster cards anyway.

It was quietly abandoned but I never saw any reason given.

[snoggle]

Feb 24, 2015 18:06:37 GMT class411 said:

Were we ever told why the advertised enhancement to Oyster cards to allow payment for other low value goods and services was shelved. I thought it was an excellent idea as so many people have Oyster cards anyway.

It was quietly abandoned but I never saw any reason given.

The simple reason is down to Banking legislation in this country. I was on the project team a very long time ago and we sought legal advice about third party use. It was deemed to be very difficult back then. Legislation has moved on since then and TfL would effectively have to become a bank if it was to hold cash deposits for the purpose of settling debts to third parties rather than merely paying for transport services. That is clearly not permissible nor very sensible for what is effectively a local authority body. I suspect primary legislation would be needed to change TfL's legal status and I can't see why the government would give up parliamentary time for such a change.

Hong Kong MTR nearly fell foul of similar rules in Hong Kong but very cleverly established a separate company with other shareholders to manage the card system there. I believe the banks in HK tried very hard to kill off the Octopus scheme but they failed. Not sure how Japan manages it but their banking and financial sector is not at all like the UK and certainly not subject to the same rules / regulation.

I think there was an "over excited" flourish a few years ago (that I think you're referring to) when some "bright young thing" declared anything was possible with Smartcards and the banks were falling over themselves to work with TfL. I'm afraid my "BS" detector went to maximum alert when I read that and I reflected "I'll believe that when I see it". We never saw it and, as you say, things fell silent. What we do have is Contactless Payment Card acceptance but the banks are the people in charge there when it comes to security protocols and controls. TfL have to comply with what the banks say, not the other way round.

[class411]

Thanks for explaining that, snoggle, I had been wondering about the ins and outs of the situation for some time.

[Deleted]

I think there's a huge market in aligning work IDs and Oyster Cards! Both must use (I presume) RFID technology to let you into your office/train and nearly every commuter must have both.

I have to admit, maybe it's just me, using a contactless debit card isn't always taken first time round by ticket barriers and I end up being 'that guy' ruining everyones journey.

[peterc]

Presumably the new system will do away with the need to use a specified barrier to pick up top-ups or refunds.

[spsmiler]

So its "bye bye" to anonymous cards, Visitor cards, easy instant obtainability of Oyster Cards, topping up using cash at stations and the end of needing Oyster ticket stops, as everything will be done online with several days delay whilst new cards arrive in the snail mail (letter post).

Instead its "hello" to travel tickets which have morphed into personal ID cards (something that the public rejected a decade ago), data retention and the surveillance society with your every journey tracked and recorded - and if there is an incident near to where the system knew you were so the police will know to come knocking on your door at their convenience and your inconvenience. Hopefully not at 6am.

Tyrannical dictatorships such as those run by Hitler and Stalin would have loved this degree of personal tracking... I'm not old enough to have personal experience but weren't ID cards done away with after WW2 because of the way the police were using them to harass travellers (especially motorists) under the pretext of "just checking your ID card"?

TfL's marketing data states that the present-day Oyster cards do not have an expiry date - but the introduction of this newer technology implies that in a few years from now the present technology will be deactivated, leaving millions of worthless cards. OK, Londoners will be able to cash them in (I assume!) but what about overseas visitors who would have bought them on the premise that they can be used on future visits?

Simon

[Chris M]

Do you have any (reliable) sources to back any of that up?

[Deleted]

Does this mean all Oyster users will need to get a new card?

[snoggle]

Feb 26, 2015 10:00:39 GMT @dlj83 said:

Does this mean all Oyster users will need to get a new card?

I don't think it does at least initially. Let's be honest - the info provided in the procurement document is limited and does not set out the product definition or the commercial rules. My reading of it is that TfL are aiming to get a new but limited in scope card product available from the next fares revision. I suspect it is targeted much more at visitors and those who have payment cards, on their bank accounts, that do not work on the TfL network. Being able to load cash from the bank account to a TfL Payment Card over the internet may well work whereas their bank card would not be compatible with the readers on buses and rail stations. I would also hazard a guess that the product may offer access to a wider range of caps than with Oyster. It is known that TfL are working on a monthly cap. This new card would offer people the opportunity to manage PAYG in a more controlled fashion as some people don't like the idea of TfL having direct access to bank accounts. If TfL launch monthly caps on CPCs there will be a rekindling of the political opposition to Oyster being less functional that using bank cards. If TfL can launch its own version of a payment card which gives daily, 7 day and monthly capping then that would dilute some of the political opposition. It won't kill it off but it may reduce the complaints from Labour, Lib Dems and Greens on the Assembly. The Mayor, even though he's going in 2016, will still want a "shiny bauble" as part of the 2016 Fares Revision package.

What I do think it is is a precursor to a wider replacement of Oyster Card technology as it will allow a niche product to be launched that will, at least, test out the technology. TfL have been clear that they want to replace the current "closed network" Oyster card technology to open that is "open" and processed on their new "back room system" and not in real time at validation devices. If we stop and think about the scale of replacing Oyster then it is going to be an enormous task given there are millions of cards in circulation and with no ticket offices in future you have to wonder how TfL handle a mass issue of replacement cards coupled with transferring over balances and products.

[causton]

Feb 26, 2015 0:14:11 GMT spsmiler said:

So its "bye bye" to anonymous cards, Visitor cards, easy instant obtainability of Oyster Cards, topping up using cash at stations and the end of needing Oyster ticket stops, as everything will be done online with several days delay whilst new cards arrive in the snail mail (letter post).

Will it now?

From someone who actually deals with these cards every day... no it's not.

[Tomcakes]

Presumably the growth of contactless cards killed off any advantage of using an Oyster card for non-transport transactions.

I'd assume that the change over would have to be gradual (with however many million Oysters in circulation there could be no other way, surely?!) - perhaps when you go to purchase a fresh season ticket, for instance, you'd be issued a new card. Although how that would work when all the ticket offices are shut is anyone's guess.

[class411]

Feb 26, 2015 14:15:44 GMT Tomcakes said:

I'd assume that the change over would have to be gradual (with however many million Oysters in circulation there could be no other way, surely?!)

Presumably they'll just say that Oyster cards will be phased out in <x> months but you will be able to claim refunds for <y> years after that.

Although how that would work when all the ticket offices are shut is anyone's guess.

I presume they are planning:

1) Obtain a card from any affiliated shop.
2) Cash based top ups from shops and station based machines
3) Card based top ups from shops and station based machines
4) Simple account maintenance on station based machines
5) Complex account maintenance over the internet (possible available at a few major stations for Internet refuseniks).

[Deleted]

Why not just go for a 100% contactless bank card system?

[domh245]

Not everyone has a contactless bank card. Particularly children (secondary school) and if they take public transport to school, it is impractical to make them use paper tickets.

[Deleted]

I took part in the now defunct Barclaycard onepulse card pilot scheme, where the one card served as an Oyster card and a Contactless payment card too - really handy, its a shame that they closed the Scheme down last year!

[sawb]

I think there may still be more people with conventional bank cards over contactless bank cards as well. I know of more people who have conventional bank cards than do contactless.

[Chris M]

There are also people who, for various reasons, cannot get a bank account and/or bank cards but who still need to travel on public transport. There will always need to be a system independent of the banks that allows people to travel.

[class411]

Feb 27, 2015 10:41:29 GMT Chris M said:

There will always need to be a system independent of the banks that allows people to travel.

LOL, yes; I can't imagine it would go down very well if someone on a 24 hour stop-over in London was instructed to open a UK bank account before being allowed to travel on TfL.

[spsmiler]

Feb 26, 2015 0:51:18 GMT Chris M said:

Do you have any (reliable) sources to back any of that up?

Chris, yes, Todays Railways UK145, January 2014, P48, in a letter someone explains why he (and others) who were supposed to be implementing a smartcard project for south and west Yorkshire ended up trying to stall it!

Their reasons included a distaste for the legal requirement that Smartcard journey records include personally identifiable data (names and postcodes) in a way that makes it easy to see who travelled where and when.

In the letter he suggested that there should be an investigation of the future ramifications and civil rights issues before Smartcard systems are introduced.

I have the scan of this page in front of me; I'd like to share it but am unsure about possible infringement of copyright if I placed this online and published the link.

Simon

[Antje]

The growth of contactless cards is not likely to signal the end of Oyster any time soon, and it appears that Oyster is not going away soon as the Railway Gazette article suggests: plus, they will need to keep it in some form for the concessionary schemes (Freedom Passes, 60+ passes, etc.).

[brigham]

"...for Internet refuseniks"

I wasn't aware that internet non-users were being likened to Communist sympathisers!