Metropolitan service to the city

[superteacher]

Before 1990, was there ever an off peak Met service to the city?
I am also curious to know how the times of the peak service changed over the years and the use of Moorgate and Liverpool Street as reversing points. Before it went all day in 1990, the last trains from Aldgate were well after 7pm. Was that always the case? I'd love to see an extract of a WTT from the mid 70's, but these are hard to get hold of!

[Harsig]

Jul 29, 2015 11:01:26 GMT superteacher said:

... Before it went all day in 1990, the last trains from Aldgate were well after 7pm. Was that always the case? I'd love to see an extract of a WTT from the mid 70's, but these are hard to get hold of!

The 1964 timetable I have in front of me shows that the last Met main train from Aldgate was the 6.36½pm to Watford all stations. After that there were the 6.45pm and 7.15pm trains from Liverpool Street to Amersham fast. There was also a 7pm Whitechapel to Wembley Park service, but this was principally for the purpose of stabling this H&C train at Neasden after the evening peak. After the 7.15pm train there were three further H&C trains up to 8.15pm that ran to Neasden depot, but these were all empty from Baker St so can't really be considered part of the through service.

Incidentally, in the same timetable, the last train from Aldgate on a Saturday was the 1.7pm to Uxbridge and this was followed by the 1.15½pm Liverpool St to Amersham.

[t697]

Nothing new department; Empty stock H&Cs to and from Neasden are current of course with S7 stock.

[norbitonflyer]

CULG is not clear on this point, but suggests that there was no through running at all until 1909, apart from two brief periods in 1868/9 (when the St Johns Wood branch first opened) and in 1907, (shortly after electrification in 1905). Baker Street was rebuilt to accommodate the through running in 1912. GWR through services to Moorgate ceased in 1939. Off peak running beyond Baker Street only started in 1990.

[revupminster]

In the 70's there was staff shortages all over the Underground and the passenger traffic in decline so there was not the need for city services. 1970 was a watershed for London Transport with the break up of the buses which ceased to be the senior service, which had previously subsidised the underground, had about 47,000 staff to the undergrounds 18,000 with about 8000 admin and others that did both buses and underground.

On Sundays there was a 12 min service to Upminster and a 24 min service to the Richmond and Ealing.

[superteacher]

Jul 30, 2015 11:27:39 GMT revupminster said:

In the 70's there was staff shortages all over the Underground and the passenger traffic in decline so there was not the need for city services. 1970 was a watershed for London Transport with the break up of the buses which ceased to be the senior service, which had previously subsidised the underground, had about 47,000 staff to the undergrounds 18,000 with about 8000 admin and others that did both buses and underground.

On Sundays there was a 12 min service to Upminster and a 24 min service to the Richmond and Ealing.

Although the peak demand remained fairly constant. It was the off peak demand that was in decline from the 1950's onwards until it reached the low point in 1982. Looking at some of the timetables back then, it would have been impossible to comprehend today's off peak service levels.

Didn't Upminster have a 20 min of peak service at one time? I remember when Dagenham East was used as an off peak reversing point, and seem to recall half the service reversing there.

[revupminster]

Jul 30, 2015 11:50:41 GMT superteacher said:

Jul 30, 2015 11:27:39 GMT revupminster said:

In the 70's there was staff shortages all over the Underground and the passenger traffic in decline so there was not the need for city services. 1970 was a watershed for London Transport with the break up of the buses which ceased to be the senior service, which had previously subsidised the underground, had about 47,000 staff to the undergrounds 18,000 with about 8000 admin and others that did both buses and underground.

On Sundays there was a 12 min service to Upminster and a 24 min service to the Richmond and Ealing.

Although the peak demand remained fairly constant. It was the off peak demand that was in decline from the 1950's onwards until it reached the low point in 1982. Looking at some of the timetables back then, it would have been impossible to comprehend today's off peak service levels.

Didn't Upminster have a 20 min of peak service at one time? I remember when Dagenham East was used as an off peak reversing point, and seem to recall half the service reversing there.

It may well have done as emergency timetables were sometimes used. I only illustrated the Sunday service as it was generally fully staffed as time and 3/4 was paid that rose to double time in the 70's to attract staff. I worked 26 Sundays in a row one year to help pay a mortgage at 15%.

[Dstock7080]

Jul 30, 2015 11:50:41 GMT superteacher said:

Didn't Upminster have a 20 min of peak service at one time? I remember when Dagenham East was used as an off peak reversing point, and seem to recall half the service reversing there.

Indeed, i remember before the Law Lords cuts of 1982 the off-peak services were:
Richmond-Upminster 20mins
Richmond-Dagenham East 20mins
Ealing-Mansion House 20mins
Wimbledon-Tower Hill 20mins
Putney Bridge-Edgware Road 20mins
Wimbledon-Edgware Road 20mins

After the Law Lords 'cuts' the District fared (!) better:
Richmond-Upminster 10min
Ealing-Tower Hill 15min
Wimbledon-Tower Hill 15min
Wimbledon-Edgware Road 10min

[superteacher]

So only a 10 min service through from Whitechapel to Dag East, with no H&C trains off peak! 6 tph, while currently it's 21 tph! Times have certainly changed . . .
It's funny when you hear people, having missed a train, who moan about having to wait 5 mins.
What is quite interesting to note is that Upminster to Elm Park could probably cope with a 20 min service even today.

[spsmiler]

21 to Upminster sounds too much, surely even 12 an hour (ie: every 5 mins) pus H&C to Barking would be sufficient off peak?

Simon

[snoggle]

And talking of poor service levels I can recall the horror of Sunday Victoria Line services - a 4 min headway between Victoria and Kings Cross but the service pattern was based on a 12 minute cycle of three services - Brixton to Kings Cross every 12, Brixton to Seven Sisters every 12 and Victoria to Walthamstow every 12. Having to wait 12 minutes for a Walthamstow train was not very good. Hard to believe where we're at these days when it comes to service frequencies.

[peterc]

Those pre 82 timings must have been pretty well cast in stone. I have just dug out my 1963 Eastern Region timetable (the only survivor of the collection build up between the ages of 11 and 13) and table 19 gives the same off peak levels to Dagenham East and Upminster.

The last train times wouldn't go down well these days. Last weeknight trains to Upminster from Victoria 11:08 (a few minutes later on Saturdays) and 12:34 (not calling at West Ham)

[lt]

Recall a Sunday travelling from Liverpool Street to Greenford, changing at Marble Arch, White City and North Acton for a West Ruislp train.

[superteacher]

Jul 30, 2015 23:52:33 GMT spsmiler said:

21 to Upminster sounds too much, surely even 12 an hour (ie: every 5 mins) pus H&C to Barking would be sufficient off peak?

Simon

Maybe I should have been clearer. It's 21 tph from Aldgate East to Barking with District and H&C combined. Barking to Upminster is 12 tph.

[roythebus]

Remember too we had Christmas Day services in the early 1970's They generally stared about 0730 and finished about 1430. I've just found a hand-written Met WTT for Christmas 1973 in my collection.

I too am amazed at today's TPH compared to my days on LT 1970-74. Hourly fast Amersham and that was your lot! Staff trains too that ran until the early hours and started again at silly-o-clock.

[revupminster]

I worked Christmas Day in 1969 at Whitechapel 19.00- 2400 in the booking office. This was before we took over Bromley to Upminster and the district line only ran between Whitechapel and Putney Bridge. Lived in Canning Town and had to get a taxi there and back. The booking clerk before me had gone home already and I collected the keys from the Station Inspector. It was the only Christmas Day I ever worked. 1970 the service ran to Upminster but many stations were closed.

On another note then, the last Upminster train from Earls Court (not sure where it had come from) was 12.04. It was followed 10 minutes later by a Mansion House that then went to Upminster as a staff train. There were no night supervisors until Upney-Upminster Bridge. If you were the supervisor and I sometimes covered the late turn Station Master at Mile End and if some one got off the staff train and you wanted to get on it, it had to wait until you let the person out of the station.

Another point was Upminster Depot had no night crews until 1980.s maybe the 1990.s. Barking did the night shifts at the east end.

[roythebus]

Beg to differ, Upminster DD have night crews in the early 1970's. We had a pair of men over Christmas at PG in 1971. They helped us finish off the Christmas goodies that we'd had for the previous night, but that's a long story. PG men worked the Upminster-Putney Bridge staff train, arrived at PB around 0144, then worked the first empties to Wimbledon. doesn't help with the original question though!

[pitdiver]

Aug 1, 2015 23:27:50 GMT roythebus said:

Remember too we had Christmas Day services in the early 1970's They generally stared about 0730 and finished about 1430. I've just found a hand-written Met WTT for Christmas 1973 in my collection.

I too am amazed at today's TPH compared to my days on LT 1970-74. Hourly fast Amersham and that was your lot! Staff trains too that ran until the early hours and started again at silly-o-clock.

Out of curiosity what sort of service would have run on Christmas day, How far out on the Met would the service have operated.

[spsmiler]

I remember a Boxing Day service in the early 1980's (or was it late 1970's?) when trains to Amersham went via Watford and ran half hourly. They also missed out many intermediate stations, eg: Rickmansworth - Amersham, non-stop. The southbound journey was truly exhilarating, as the train hurtled through Chalfont & Latimer and Chorleywood at full pelt, and being a downhill run it truly picked up some speed...

Somewhere I have some super 8 film from that day, although as the camera did not have any image stabilisation and at higher speeds the A stock used to throw passengers about as if it was trying to make a scrambled egg, so the footage is not really viewable.

Simon

[pitdiver]

Further to my earlier post, when I first joined LUL in 1989 I went straight to the Met. At that time I worked at Watford. There was no service at at all on Christmas day and on Boxing day there was a service only to HOH, Northwood and Rickmansworth. When was the service over the Christmas reduced to this level and when did it start to increase to the level as at present.

[spsmiler]

Aug 5, 2015 10:15:00 GMT pitdiver said:

Further to my earlier post, when I first joined LUL in 1989 I went straight to the Met. At that time I worked at Watford. There was no service at at all on Christmas day and on Boxing day there was a service only to HOH, Northwood and Rickmansworth. When was the service over the Christmas reduced to this level and when did it start to increase to the level as at present.

The time scale you quoted sounds about right, alas I don't remember enough to answer your questions about service (in)frequency.

Simon