Finchley Central Terminators

[ducatisti]

Mrs Ducatisti has been getting the tube out of Camden north. Every day for the last week she has managed to get a Finchley Central terminator. It seems to be about the same time every day (about 5.20 out of Camden).

In 5 years of regular northern-lining, I've never seen one. Are they a new thing?

[Deleted]

Train 13, 16.38 ex-Morden via Bank is scheduled to terminate at Finchley Central, 17.22 ex-Camden Town arrive Finchley Central 17.37 thence to siding. Forms 17.49 to Morden via Bank. There's also two other trains a bit later too.

[superteacher]

They used to be a lot more common a few years back.

[ducatisti]

fascinating!
I thought reversers all went up to Mill Hill East and back.
I presume it's simply to allow a faster turnaround?
How does it reverse? (Mrs D changes at East F...)

[Deleted]

Train arrives in platform 1 and is tipped out. It then departs empty and proceeds north into the north siding (number 25 road). Driver changes ends, train departs the siding and heads into platform 3 to make its way back into central London.

Diagram from my blog here, showing the move from platform 2 into the siding. As I say, in the case of train 13 it's booked to terminate in platform 1 and head into the siding, but I hope this diagram of the move from platform 2 will suffice.

Edit: Obviously them was the good old days of colour light signalling. It's all TBTC and its movement authorities and (in failure scenarios) RM Hold boards, these days, but that doesn't matter for our purposes.

[North End]

Jan 9, 2016 21:21:31 GMT ducatisti said:

fascinating!
I thought reversers all went up to Mill Hill East and back.
I presume it's simply to allow a faster turnaround?
How does it reverse? (Mrs D changes at East F...)

It's basically because High Barnet is already full with terminating trains at that time of day so sending anything more up there would mean further reducing turnround time. Likewise Mill Hill East is also in use. The added benefit is the train gets to go south earlier.

As a general point turnround times on the Northern have become very tight since WTT55. Most trains now only get 4 or 5 minutes at Barnet Edgware or Morden, which is not much time for the driver, nor much recovery time to make up any late running. Gone are the days when trains used to get 20 minutes at Barnet on Sundays with only 2x platforms being used.

I wouldn't be surprised if stepping back eventually comes in at the north end of the line.

[Tomcakes]

There are also reasonably regular short-turns around 3-3.30pm in my experience, but these don't always occur so presume they are trying to get a particular late running train back to schedule prior to the evening peak.

I do wonder, if turn-around times are tight, whether all trains need to go through to Barnet? Off-peak, they're pretty quiet, and there's still a 4-minute frequency. (Sorry, Tubeboy!)

[North End]

Jan 10, 2016 21:40:02 GMT Tomcakes said:

There are also reasonably regular short-turns around 3-3.30pm in my experience, but these don't always occur so presume they are trying to get a particular late running train back to schedule prior to the evening peak.

I do wonder, if turn-around times are tight, whether all trains need to go through to Barnet? Off-peak, they're pretty quiet, and there's still a 4-minute frequency. (Sorry, Tubeboy!)

The off-peak frequency is actually even more frequent than every 4 mins; it's either every 3 mins or every 3.5 mins - I can't remember which.

The trouble with terminating short is that this means they will lose the ability for Finchley Central or Golders Green to be available to turn late-running trains. Also it could disrupt the pattern where alternate trains at Barnet and Edgware run via Bank or CX.

In the longer term something will have to give, as currently they're running on the goodwill of the drivers. 4 mins at the end of every trip just isn't enough to change ends and if necessary go to the toilet. The line is already seeing a bit of an exodus of drivers to other lines, something needs to be done to sort this before it starts causing deeper issues.

[Tomcakes]

Jan 10, 2016 23:22:24 GMT North End said:

Jan 10, 2016 21:40:02 GMT Tomcakes said:

There are also reasonably regular short-turns around 3-3.30pm in my experience, but these don't always occur so presume they are trying to get a particular late running train back to schedule prior to the evening peak.

I do wonder, if turn-around times are tight, whether all trains need to go through to Barnet? Off-peak, they're pretty quiet, and there's still a 4-minute frequency. (Sorry, Tubeboy!)

The off-peak frequency is actually even more frequent than every 4 mins; it's either every 3 mins or every 3.5 mins - I can't remember which.

The trouble with terminating short is that this means they will lose the ability for Finchley Central or Golders Green to be available to turn late-running trains. Also it could disrupt the pattern where alternate trains at Barnet and Edgware run via Bank or CX.

In the longer term something will have to give, as currently they're running on the goodwill of the drivers. 4 mins at the end of every trip just isn't enough to change ends and if necessary go to the toilet. The line is already seeing a bit of an exodus of drivers to other lines, something needs to be done to sort this before it starts causing deeper issues.

True about losing the ability to turn back late running trains, but if (say) every third train were to turn at Finchley/Golders, you still could turn (say) an Edgware into a Colindale or a Barnet into a Finchley (and if required to allow the latter, the booked Finchley into an Archway). Or if there's a more generous layover as a result of this, you don't have to worry quite so much?

[North End]

Jan 11, 2016 15:57:45 GMT Tomcakes said:

Jan 10, 2016 23:22:24 GMT North End said:

The off-peak frequency is actually even more frequent than every 4 mins; it's either every 3 mins or every 3.5 mins - I can't remember which.

The trouble with terminating short is that this means they will lose the ability for Finchley Central or Golders Green to be available to turn late-running trains. Also it could disrupt the pattern where alternate trains at Barnet and Edgware run via Bank or CX.

In the longer term something will have to give, as currently they're running on the goodwill of the drivers. 4 mins at the end of every trip just isn't enough to change ends and if necessary go to the toilet. The line is already seeing a bit of an exodus of drivers to other lines, something needs to be done to sort this before it starts causing deeper issues.

True about losing the ability to turn back late running trains, but if (say) every third train were to turn at Finchley/Golders, you still could turn (say) an Edgware into a Colindale or a Barnet into a Finchley (and if required to allow the latter, the booked Finchley into an Archway). Or if there's a more generous layover as a result of this, you don't have to worry quite so much?

Would work at FYC, but I wouldn't advocate using GGN for regular reversing, as the middle road is used very frequently for one thing or another - changeovers, PNRs, late running, reforms, laying over, etc.

[superteacher]

There was a timetable in the early 90's which had scheduled reverser scoff peak at Finchley Central, Golders Green, Kennington loop & siding and Tooting Broadway. They quickly realised that there was little capacity to turn trains short, and the timetable was replaced. Late running Kennington via Bank trains were often reversed at London Bridge, a move which isn't possible nowadays.

[jacks]

I boarded an Edgware bound train yesterday which on the approach to Euston (City) was changed to a Finchley Central terminator due to late running caused by earlier disruption.  I thought it odd that it was swapping branches rather than just being turned at Golders but when I swapped to the train behind we got held at Belsize Park owing to congestion so I guess the aim was to get a train out of the way as much as it was making up time (or is there an operational reason why Finchley Central is better for turning short)?

[North End]

Jan 13, 2016 18:18:42 GMT jacks said:

I boarded an Edgware bound train yesterday which on the approach to Euston (City) was changed to a Finchley Central terminator due to late running caused by earlier disruption.  I thought it odd that it was swapping branches rather than just being turned at Golders but when I swapped to the train behind we got held at Belsize Park owing to congestion so I guess the aim was to get a train out of the way as much as it was making up time (or is there an operational reason why Finchley Central is better for turning short)?

You've answered your own question with the congestion at GGN. Generally if there's a problem on one branch one of the first things the controllers will seek to do is send some trains up the other branch, utilising whatever sidings are available - ideally they will be held til their booked southbound time, depending on what else may need to use the siding.

The chosen trains would normally be ones which don't have a crew relief on the original branch.