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Post by domh245 on Jun 14, 2016 15:38:34 GMT
In another thread, tut mentioned that the ELL was due to be fitted with ATO soon. How much control do TFL have over the London Overground as presumably Network Rail own and manage the rails and signals etc. If in the future they wanted ATO installed (similar systems to those used on LUL) who would pay and could it actually be achieved. ATO is due to be installed on the East London Line really quite soon. And actually a 'digital railway' including ATO is certainly planned for the National Rail network. Thameslink and Crossrail, for example, will both have ATO. Network Rail do own and operate the infrastructure. The operator (currently still LOROL I think) runs the trains, with performance targets and services specified by TfL. I have to admit, this is the first I'd heard of it! I knew that the Thameslink Core from Blackfriars to St Pancras was going to migrate to ATO once fitted with ETCS level 2 (and the new rolling stock is fully introduced) and that the Crossrail core was going to operate ATO with a CBTC system, but I wasn't aware of any ELL plans. Has anyone got any kind of source for this info? |
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Post by phil on Jun 14, 2016 18:21:40 GMT
In another thread, tut mentioned that the ELL was due to be fitted with ATO soon. ATO is due to be installed on the East London Line really quite soon. And actually a 'digital railway' including ATO is certainly planned for the National Rail network. Thameslink and Crossrail, for example, will both have ATO. Network Rail do own and operate the infrastructure. The operator (currently still LOROL I think) runs the trains, with performance targets and services specified by TfL. I have to admit, this is the first I'd heard of it! I knew that the Thameslink Core from Blackfriars to St Pancras was going to migrate to ATO once fitted with ETCS level 2 (and the new rolling stock is fully introduced) and that the Crossrail core was going to operate ATO with a CBTC system, but I wasn't aware of any ELL plans. Has anyone got any kind of source for this info? All please note, NR do not own the ELL infrastructure! Everything between New Cross Gate / SLL spur up to where it starts to run alongside the NLL is owned by TfL. Furthermore TfL own the infrastructure (but not the trackbed) from Dalston to Highbury with NR effectively being the Landlord for this bit. Operation of said infrastructure is however contracted out to NR to manage as the infrastructure - just as HS1 is managed (not owned by NR) |
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Post by superteacher on Jun 14, 2016 19:41:55 GMT
In another thread, tut mentioned that the ELL was due to be fitted with ATO soon. I have to admit, this is the first I'd heard of it! I knew that the Thameslink Core from Blackfriars to St Pancras was going to migrate to ATO once fitted with ETCS level 2 (and the new rolling stock is fully introduced) and that the Crossrail core was going to operate ATO with a CBTC system, but I wasn't aware of any ELL plans. Has anyone got any kind of source for this info? All please note, NR do not own the ELL infrastructure! Everything between New Cross Gate / SLL spur up to where it starts to run alongside the NLL is owned by TfL. Furthermore TfL own the infrastructure (but not the trackbed) from Dalston to Highbury with NR effectively being the Landlord for this bit. Operation of said infrastructure is however contracted out to NR to manage as the infrastructure - just as HS1 is managed (not owned by NR) No wonder people get confused with who owns what, who operates what etc! |
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Post by phoenixcronin on Jun 14, 2016 20:10:46 GMT
Great! Should help sort out some of the leisurely running at times, and also some of the annoyingly slow approaches to stations.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Jun 14, 2016 23:17:54 GMT
Great! Should help sort out some of the leisurely running at times, and also some of the annoyingly slow approaches to stations. Hmm don't count on it. Brent Cross southbound platform ramp under manual driving with conventional signalling - 40 mph. Brent Cross southbound platform ramp under ATO with Seltrac - 22 mph. Plenty more similar examples. |
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Post by philthetube on Jun 15, 2016 1:10:18 GMT
Great! Should help sort out some of the leisurely running at times, and also some of the annoyingly slow approaches to stations. Stand at Finchley Road sometime and compare arrival speeds between Met and Jubilee trains southbound, Met trains enter the platform a lot quicker. |
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Post by redbond on Jun 15, 2016 3:30:40 GMT
As has been said, from New Cross Gate up to Dalston Western Curve, is Rail for London (RfL)owned. Maintenance is carried out by Carillion, with signalling staff provided by Network Rail.
As for ATO, it has been touted that anything above 18tph would require some form of ATO on the "core route", however there are no firm plans for it yet.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2016 3:56:41 GMT
As for ATO, it has been touted that anything above 18tph would require some form of ATO on the "core route", however there are no firm plans for it yet. I must have got a little carried away with the hearsay! Thanks for clearing things up and apologies to everyone for the dodgy information. |
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Post by phoenixcronin on Jun 15, 2016 9:18:19 GMT
Great! Should help sort out some of the leisurely running at times, and also some of the annoyingly slow approaches to stations. Hmm don't count on it. Brent Cross southbound platform ramp under manual driving with conventional signalling - 40 mph. Brent Cross southbound platform ramp under ATO with Seltrac - 22 mph. Plenty more similar examples. But isn't that due to the fact that Brent Cross is in open air and hence the dodgy Minimum Braking Rate of Seltrac? The ELL is mostly tunnel |
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North End
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Post by North End on Jun 15, 2016 10:57:57 GMT
Hmm don't count on it. Brent Cross southbound platform ramp under manual driving with conventional signalling - 40 mph. Brent Cross southbound platform ramp under ATO with Seltrac - 22 mph. Plenty more similar examples. But it's that due to the fact that Brent Cross is in open air and hence the dodgy Minimum Braking Rate of Seltrac? The ELL is mostly tunnel Not just open sections. For example Oval northbound used to be a 35 mph entry, now 22 mph as well; it's by no means the only one. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2016 19:17:17 GMT
Bring back the olden days, when LUL and BR were both under the ownership of the British Transport Commission, permitting intermixing of LUL and BR assets, and each other's trains to run over the same physical rails on the same day, without any complexity!
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Post by stapler on Jun 17, 2016 15:18:36 GMT
Wasn't it pre-BTC days, when the Underground was the "London Executive" and BR the "Railways executive"?
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Post by spsmiler on Jun 19, 2016 20:38:37 GMT
But it's that due to the fact that Brent Cross is in open air and hence the dodgy Minimum Braking Rate of Seltrac? The ELL is mostly tunnel Not just open sections. For example Oval northbound used to be a 35 mph entry, now 22 mph as well; it's by no means the only one. Maybe the solution would be to not use Seltrac? I don't recall the name of the system used on the Victoria Line, but perhaps it would be better? I wonder how the system to be used on the Thameslink central core will perform? Simon |
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North End
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Post by North End on Jun 19, 2016 23:41:09 GMT
Not just open sections. For example Oval northbound used to be a 35 mph entry, now 22 mph as well; it's by no means the only one. Maybe the solution would be to not use Seltrac? I don't recall the name of the system used on the Victoria Line, but perhaps it would be better? Simon We shall never know, since LU blew their chance by choosing to retender the original SSR contract in the excitement of taking back control of Metronet. By the time they had been through their flirtation with Bombardier CityFlo, Thales was the only supplier on the table. Thales name your price for the Picc, Bakerloo and Central Lines! My personal view is that whilst I'm not particularly complimentary about both Seltrac and its supplier (in my view a poor product with far too many 'glitches' which should have been identified and corrected way before getting as far as the live railway), for LU's part a lot more focus could and should have have been put in to getting the system performing better. The Victoria Line seems to have been rather better in this regard, the fruits of which is that their system is reliably delivering 34tph day in day out, which is a highly creditable achievement IMO. |
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