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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 1, 2016 20:57:50 GMT
If you stand up by drivers end on platform 7 bank W&C you can hear (and feel) all the cross rail tunnelling going on within a couple of metres from the tunnel wall. I thought the tunnels for Crossrail had all been completed months ago, and in any case don't go that close to Bank. It is surely the work on the new Walbrook entrance that can be heard.
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Post by rsdworker on Nov 1, 2016 22:14:24 GMT
Piccadilly Circus station could have deep lifts which easily built within station area - example inline lifts could placed in
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Nov 2, 2016 11:04:48 GMT
Would there circulating space for the additional passengers?
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Post by crusty54 on Nov 2, 2016 15:46:18 GMT
Would there circulating space for the additional passengers? Crossrail 2 is not going there. The escalators at Piccadilly Circus don't reach platform level so incline lifts aren't an option.
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Post by rsdworker on Nov 2, 2016 19:47:59 GMT
Would there circulating space for the additional passengers? Crossrail 2 is not going there. The escalators at Piccadilly Circus don't reach platform level so incline lifts aren't an option. i was refering the between concouse to upper landings which can be easily done with inline lifts the standard lifts would serve platform levels
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Dom K
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Post by Dom K on Nov 2, 2016 20:14:42 GMT
We are veering off topic here. This is a topic in the Bakerloo line thread. Back to the subject at hand
Thanks
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Post by nig on Nov 3, 2016 14:59:04 GMT
so if all stations having to have platform edge doors and if drainrat is right they have to have a passageway can anyone really see this happening on deep level tubes with the amount of cost and closers it would cause all because Boris wanted to stop drivers strikes
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Post by up1989 on Nov 3, 2016 15:40:58 GMT
so if all stations having to have platform edge doors and if drainrat is right they have to have a passageway can anyone really see this happening on deep level tubes with the amount of cost and closers it would cause all because Boris wanted to stop drivers strikes I would probably say tfl will be watching closely the Glasgow clockwork orange as i haven't read they will be enlarging the tunnels and thats planned for uto
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Post by drainrat on Nov 6, 2016 11:11:51 GMT
If you stand up by drivers end on platform 7 bank W&C you can hear (and feel) all the cross rail tunnelling going on within a couple of metres from the tunnel wall. I thought the tunnels for Crossrail had all been completed months ago, and in any case don't go that close to Bank. It is surely the work on the new Walbrook entrance that can be heard. If that's the northern line passageway, then no, that's the other end of platform. Will take another listen tomorrow, if I remember
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Post by drainrat on Nov 6, 2016 11:14:49 GMT
If you stand up by drivers end on platform 7 bank W&C you can hear (and feel) all the cross rail tunnelling going on within a couple of metres from the tunnel wall. Sensors line a lot of tunnel walls on both Central and W&C line, one recently placed at WB tunnel mouth WHC tunnelling is not the problem. There is no room within Piccadilly Circus station for additional escalators and lifts. No, space is
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 6, 2016 13:20:26 GMT
It is surely the work on the new Walbrook entrance that can be heard. If that's the northern line passageway, then no, that's the other end of platform. The other end is even further from Crossrail. It is probably the Bloomsberg development on Queen Victoria Street, at the junction with Queen Street, which looks to be roughly above the Waterloo end of the platforms at Bank. [ (PIcture shows the Bloomsberg is the empty triangular plot in the foreground, the Walbrook development top centre, Bank station top left, Queen Vic Street (under which the W&C runs) diagonally across the left side of the image.
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Post by crusty54 on Nov 6, 2016 15:14:55 GMT
The building is virtually complete.
I did see a visual once that suggested there would be a W&C entrance at the Mansion House station end of the temporary site buildings in the photo.
However, I think the entrance will be nearer to the Bank junction.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 6, 2016 16:23:07 GMT
The building is virtually complete. I know - I was using the picture to illustrate where it is. I work further down QVS and we can hear District Line trains rumbling past (the Drain is beneath the District at that point)
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Post by superteacher on Nov 6, 2016 17:47:26 GMT
Despite a previous reminder from Dom K, this thread has continued to be off topic, and in any case has run its course. Locked.
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Post by superteacher on Feb 23, 2018 8:47:59 GMT
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Post by aslefshrugged on Feb 23, 2018 9:59:47 GMT
Perhaps the TfL beancounters made Sadiq aware that driverless operation (inc. trains, signalling, platform edge doors) on the Piccadilly, Central and Waterloo & City Lines plus new trains and signalling on the Bakerloo would cost £16bn so he's decided to go for a somewhat slightly cheaper option of just new trains and signalling.
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Post by alpinejohn on Feb 23, 2018 11:29:17 GMT
Personally I have no problem trusting a computer to do predictable tasks with incredible reliability. Indeed, dare I say it, for boring repetitive tasks, I would generally trust them far more than a human. Computers don’t get tired, they don’t need meal breaks, comfort breaks, holidays, or fall ill – they probably won’t have SPADs. They just boringly do the job they are programmed to do.
What computers are unable to do and the real reason why Khan is right is they can never be programmed to handle “unprogrammable events” which can and do happen! Like it or not totally unpredictable things happen - we even have earthquakes in Britain. Not long back some fool installing concrete piles managed to drill right through the roof of a tube line with debris ending on the track – I doubt any computer would have noticed until too late. Thankfully an alert driver reported unusual water cascading from the roof and stopped services. Regardless of the job title we need someone present.
So I have no issue with NTFL or Deep Tube for London or whatever acronym is the latest, being designed to let computers do pretty much all the boring tasks of driving a train from station A to station B whether we are talking about Bakerloo or any other line.
BUT even on routes fitted with end to end platform edge doors we still need someone competent onboard somewhere to oversee safe boarding and respond and provide advice to passengers in response to totally unexpected events like a total communications and power failure underground, which unlike the DLR might leave a train without any external communication from a remotely based signalling staff. As for above ground sections risks seem even higher with mindless acts of vandalism seemingly a right of passage for some. How can you programme a computer chip to spot, react to, and as necessary report fools throwing stuff on the track?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 23, 2018 11:55:28 GMT
Not long back some fool installing concrete piles managed to drill right through the roof of a tube line with debris ending on the track – I doubt any computer would have noticed until too late. Thankfully an alert driver reported unusual water cascading from the roof and stopped services. It was between Old Street and Essex Road - so a tube line but not a Tube line - which was part of the problem because the surveyors had only checked with TfL and not Railtrack - and of course it wasn't on the Tube Map! The driver was actually very lucky: the drill bit, which was about two feet across, had snapped off so was lying on the track. Had it not done so it would have gone through the driver's side windscreen. (As had happened, mercifully with a - much smaller - surveyor's drill, on the Central Line some years previously)
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Post by Chris M on Feb 23, 2018 13:36:32 GMT
In a more recent example of humans demonstrating their worth, the RAIB is currently investigating an incident on the Cambrian line where the ERTMS signalling system stopped transmitting temporary speed restriction data to the trains. There was no indication of this in the control room so the first they knew about it was when a driver contacted them after noticiing that a long-standing temporary restriction wasn't being shown on their display. This sort of "something doesn't look/feel right" sanity check is not something that computers can easily do. ERTMS = European Rail Traffic Management System, which is briefly explained at the link.
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Post by toby on Feb 23, 2018 13:54:09 GMT
Khan's statement felt like a throwaway line to the unions, one he can only say as he won't be making any advances on their jobs like ordering new trains with detachable cabs.
If a computer was doing the drilling it could be measuring its progress every second with ground penetrating radar, but humans could do that too. If the signalling changed but wasn't cryptographically signed off a computer could have rejected the changes, but a human could have noticed the lack of a notice in a staff room/email about changes. Safety infrequently comes down to whether it's human or computer, but how well the signal was made and received by the human signaller, driver or coder.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 23, 2018 16:12:23 GMT
Not long back some fool installing concrete piles managed to drill right through the roof of a tube line with debris ending on the track – I doubt any computer would have noticed until too late. Thankfully an alert driver reported unusual water cascading from the roof and stopped services. It was between Old Street and Essex Road - so a tube line but not a Tube line - which was part of the problem because the surveyors had only checked with TfL and not Railtrack - and of course it wasn't on the Tube Map! The driver was actually very lucky: the drill bit, which was about two feet across, had snapped off so was lying on the track. Had it not done so it would have gone through the driver's side windscreen. (As had happened, mercifully with a - much smaller - surveyor's drill, on the Central Line some years previously) Not to mention the two incidences that occured on the Central lin in the late 80s/early 90s, or the dent in the tunnel roof of the Bakerloo line a few years back. I can't be alone in thinking the whole debacle with UTO is one driven mostly by ideologues who have little understanding of the tube environment or what train staff actually do, but most importantly don't actually care about either. Looking at the technical solutions that were proposed for UTO, one couldn't help but be left with the feeling that if so much extra complicated technology (involving massive cost and issues of reliability) was needed simply to spite unions, then maybe it would be better to just stick with what we've got (or, rather, stay within the current operational paradigm, innovating where possible on a like-for-like basis), rather than invite a whole host of problems that need solving. Some sort of DLR solution seems to be the practical best that can be expected of 19th century 11'-8½" tube tunnels; always manned but the amount of local human control (hopefully!) required on a normal basis minimal. That way you avoid trying to fit platform doors everywhere (especially curved platforms), and the need to mess about with the Pic and District platform heights and services. The 'Newspaper' article is quite misleading, Alex Johnson did not unveil a range of driverless trains. He had a few speculative drawings manufacturers did on a computer. I could, by the same token, reveal a range of intergalactic A stock clones, because I have photoshop. Or make myself a billionaire, because I have a bank statement and a pencil. The Standard's editor has never been trifled by the problems of misrepresentation though.
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Post by banana99 on Feb 23, 2018 18:03:02 GMT
Lidar would solve any tunnel imperfections. Much earlier than a human.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Feb 23, 2018 19:18:04 GMT
The 'Newspaper' article is quite misleading, Alex Johnson did not unveil a range of driverless trains. He had a few speculative drawings manufacturers did on a computer. Ah, so a train is a driverless train when there's no driver in it. So, for many hours at a time LU have quite a lot of 'driverless' trains. Fewer on Friday and Saturday.
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Post by antharro on Feb 23, 2018 20:05:28 GMT
Back to the Bakerloo Line please... or has this thread run its course again?
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Post by banana99 on Feb 23, 2018 20:57:05 GMT
Back to the Bakerloo Line please... or has this thread run its course again? OK. Lidar on Bakerloo Line trains would find tunnel imperfections quicker than any human and obstructions on the line as it doesn't need to read a book
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Post by melikepie on Feb 24, 2018 7:34:54 GMT
I wonder how messed up fully driverless trains would be if say someone poured a load of concrete into a signal room. Would it react differently?
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Feb 24, 2018 9:27:23 GMT
Back to the Bakerloo Line please... or has this thread run its course again? OK. Lidar on Bakerloo Line trains would find tunnel imperfections quicker than any human and obstructions on the line as it doesn't need to read a book Not keen on this kind of flippant bad manners. You can have some time out.
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Post by superteacher on Feb 24, 2018 9:35:36 GMT
Back to the Bakerloo Line please... or has this thread run its course again? Oops, just saw your comment! I'd looked back through the past few pages and realised it wasn't just about the Bakerloo, so moved it! I resurrected this thread to post the link to Sadiq Khan's comments. However, in view of some of the recent comments which have added nothing of value, I think it has run its course so I'll lock it.
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