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Post by MoreToJack on Jun 19, 2017 22:14:08 GMT
The trains are still double-staffed when operating in the normal direction, but only because the second member needs to get back! Otherwise we'd end up leaving all our train operators at the wrong end... Tripcocks are functioning normally with trains obeying all signals and operating at linespeed in the normal direction.
(You have to have two additional members of staff as trains will be working bang road simultaneously, so it's not a case of devising a system where one is effectively a pilot... and pilot working is an entirely separate procedure!)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 6:40:59 GMT
I wonder; Could this be done after ATC is commissioned? Even with Restricted Manual for the wrong direction moves. The answer is yes; all the current emergency operating procedures can be done, in fact setting them up is almost the same as on a conventional line, although there are some additional protection options available, for example closing a track instead of maintaining signals at danger. The more awkward bit would be taking it out afterwards, unlike conventional signalling there would likely be a lot of computer work required to restore the Seltrac system to its normal state. Likewise, for this reason during SLW everything would likely be in RM, even the right-direction stuff. Agree that it is possible to run wrong direction working in RM. Never tried it but it would be labour intensive as a reservation / route would probably need to be set up for each wrong direction move. The right direction moves could still be in full speed working. The alternative, as you say, would be to turn the system off and run both ways in RM but I don't think that should be necessary. I don't know enough about the CBTC implementation if it could be done as a fully-signalled operation (in theory CBTC is bi-di, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Underground have had that functionality removed, as they have on at least one of the TBTC installs). It could otherwise be done with RM but by that stage the service starts to significantly slow down. We can manage a 15-minute headway as one direction is at linespeed. You'd be struggling to maintain that if having to run at max 10mph in both directions, or for any further length. Beyond a 15 minute headway you might as well not bother. I think we've covered this before. Seltrac has bi-directional functionality built in and it hasn't been removed for any project (there are some bi-directional moves on both Jubilee and Northern for example at terminii). However, for full speed bi-directional working two things are needed (1) track infrastructure that supports it for example current rail ramps and (2) all the planned moves need to be tested ... a lot. This adds a lot of cost to the project and so no new bi-directional working was added to Jubilee and Northern (except I seem to recall around Stratford) and none will be added to 4LM apart from a couple of requested reversing moves. Whilst bi-di would be incredibly useful for instances like the Hammersmith to Wood Lane service there are few other regular benefits as there aren't enough crossovers to allow running of a frequent service around a blockage on one track. Agree that trying to maintain a service in RM is almost impossible though.
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Post by piccboy on Jun 20, 2017 10:27:04 GMT
The trains are still double-staffed when operating in the normal direction, but only because the second member needs to get back! Otherwise we'd end up leaving all our train operators at the wrong end... Tripcocks are functioning normally with trains obeying all signals and operating at linespeed in the normal direction. (You have to have two additional members of staff as trains will be working bang road simultaneously, so it's not a case of devising a system where one is effectively a pilot... and pilot working is an entirely separate procedure!) I believe the trains would be double staffed because of there being no tripcock tester between Hammersmith and Wood Lane, nearest one is Ladbrooke Grove. I don't know enough about the CBTC implementation if it could be done as a fully-signalled operation (in theory CBTC is bi-di, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Underground have had that functionality removed, as they have on at least one of the TBTC installs). It could otherwise be done with RM but by that stage the service starts to significantly slow down. We can manage a 15-minute headway as one direction is at linespeed. You'd be struggling to maintain that if having to run at max 10mph in both directions, or for any further length. Beyond a 15 minute headway you might as well not bother. I think we've covered this before. Seltrac has bi-directional functionality built in and it hasn't been removed for any project (there are some bi-directional moves on both Jubilee and Northern for example at terminii). However, for full speed bi-directional working two things are needed (1) track infrastructure that supports it for example current rail ramps and (2) all the planned moves need to be tested ... a lot. This adds a lot of cost to the project and so no new bi-directional working was added to Jubilee and Northern (except I seem to recall around Stratford) and none will be added to 4LM apart from a couple of requested reversing moves. Whilst bi-di would be incredibly useful for instances like the Hammersmith to Wood Lane service there are few other regular benefits as there aren't enough crossovers to allow running of a frequent service around a blockage on one track. Agree that trying to maintain a service in RM is almost impossible though. I understand that the Chesham branch on the Metropolitan would be the only full bi-directional implementation on the 4LM project.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 20, 2017 11:25:41 GMT
I believe the trains would be double staffed because of there being no tripcock tester between Hammersmith and Wood Lane, nearest one is Ladbrooke Grove. Surely because the leading tripcock has been isolated to perform single-line working ?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 18:09:25 GMT
Is anyone able to add an explanation of the Single Line Working procedure?
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Post by MoreToJack on Jun 20, 2017 18:50:59 GMT
Is anyone able to add an explanation of the Single Line Working procedure? Yes! Just preparing relevant photographs and diagrams - hoping to have something ready later tonight. ☺️
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 19:06:35 GMT
Atleast one thing though you shouldn't have any failures for awhile.
What do they do if the train develops a fault? Hammersmith must have a few S7's still locked in for spares but eventually they will need to be checked at a depot
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Post by superteacher on Jun 20, 2017 20:04:34 GMT
Atleast one thing though you shouldn't have any failures for awhile. What do they do if the train develops a fault? Hammersmith must have a few S7's still locked in for spares but eventually they will need to be checked at a depot There didn't seem to be many S7's in there the other day. The second closure happened during the day, so there wouldn't hsve been many trains in the sidings.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 20:21:08 GMT
Is anyone able to add an explanation of the Single Line Working procedure? Yes! Just preparing relevant photographs and diagrams - hoping to have something ready later tonight. ☺️ You read my mind Thanks, looking forward to reading it =)
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Post by MoreToJack on Jun 21, 2017 0:38:30 GMT
Atleast one thing though you shouldn't have any failures for awhile. What do they do if the train develops a fault? Hammersmith must have a few S7's still locked in for spares but eventually they will need to be checked at a depot It can do what it wants till Monday, I'm on annual leave! We're changing over the trains every night for train prep purposes anyway, and it's just the same procedure if we had to change one over for a fault. If the faults aren't serious (for example, we've had both a set of doors not opening and a few CIS faults) they're being kept in service just to save the additional faff (and potential shut down) to change over trains. Removing the train from the westbound road is fairly simple - one set up of points to unsecure with no impact to the eastbound. However, the train on the eastbound road would require a suspension. As it interfaces with the eastbound road that train has to be stabled in the platform before any unsecuring can take place. Although in theory you could maintain the outer home signal (OZ1) at danger whilst the train was up the line, this isn't covered for under the rulebook. Atleast one thing though you shouldn't have any failures for awhile. What do they do if the train develops a fault? Hammersmith must have a few S7's still locked in for spares but eventually they will need to be checked at a depot There didn't seem to be many S7's in there the other day. The second closure happened during the day, so there wouldn't hsve been many trains in the sidings. I estimate 12-13 trains stranded at Hammersmith, but it could be slightly less. Sixteen trains (four more than usual due to the District line works) stabled at Hammersmith on Friday night, with 10 trains leaving for service on Saturday morning. When the suspension message was broadcast, six trains were trapped west of Latimer Road, with all returning to depot. There's usually also a spare train or two sat in the depot to facilitate changeovers in the event of train failures. In the event that the trains at Hammersmith come due for an exam there is an emergency maintenance road provided that should, in theory, be able to carry out most work to release the trains back into service. We're okay for now, but there's still not much certainty as to when the shuttle service will end.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 4:10:51 GMT
Failing that as done before they could run it empty to the nearest depot
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Post by 35b on Jun 21, 2017 6:40:39 GMT
The last couple of posts have confused me. What about Grenfell House is actually causing the closure?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 6:45:46 GMT
Risk of movement
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Post by 35b on Jun 21, 2017 6:53:09 GMT
Thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 22:53:04 GMT
A tangential question: is there a good reason why they aren't reversing the trains on the other end of the H&C at Paddington rather than Edgware Road? It would be much more useful to the customers. And I believe there's a crossover west of Paddington they could use.
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Post by MoreToJack on Jun 21, 2017 23:35:12 GMT
The crossover west of Paddington is not yet commissioned, and will not be until ATC is in place.
The crossover west of Royal Oak remains, but has not been used for over ten years. It is hand worked and requires a number of staff to do so safely and in accordance with current procedures. The single line working to Ladbroke Grove would require yet more staff - something that will be difficult as is already proving in resourcing the single line (locked in) service.
Primarily the reason is one of protection. In order to maintain the safety of the single line, the traction current section Paddington (Sub)-Royal Oak westbound has remained switched off, meaning no trains could reach the locked in section. There are no appropriate section switches that could be opened to maintain this integrity. Signal OP11 is also maintained at danger by Edgware Road cabin, and again there are no other suitable, semi-automatic signals in this area. It is easy enough to get from Edgware Road to Paddington (and beyond) by local buses or the Bakerloo, Outer Rail Circle and District lines.
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Post by programmes1 on Jun 22, 2017 6:48:52 GMT
The crossover west of Paddington is not yet commissioned, and will not be until ATC is in place. The crossover west of Royal Oak remains, but has not been used for over ten years. It is hand worked and requires a number of staff to do so safely and in accordance with current procedures. The single line working to Ladbroke Grove would require yet more staff - something that will be difficult as is already proving in resourcing the single line (locked in) service. Primarily the reason is one of protection. In order to maintain the safety of the single line, the traction current section Paddington (Sub)-Royal Oak westbound has remained switched off, meaning no trains could reach the locked in section. There are no appropriate section switches that could be opened to maintain this integrity. Signal OP11 is also maintained at danger by Edgware Road cabin, and again there are no other suitable, semi-automatic signals in this area. It is easy enough to get from Edgware Road to Paddington (and beyond) by local buses or the Bakerloo, Outer Rail Circle and District lines. I think you mean OP12 otherwise there would be no trains to High St and beyond. Information I have shows a switch at Ladbroke Grove so the cross over at Royal Oak could be used but as you say it's not been used for 10 years so there is no one trained to operate and you would only need those with the required license.
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Post by wimblephil on Jun 22, 2017 16:53:29 GMT
I have a question...!
Why is it that the doors of the front and rear cars do not open during this shuttle operation other than at Hammersmith (at least on the Eastbound wrong direction working, as those are the only journeys I have made so far)?
I thought that as long as the train was berthed in the right spot of the platform, the door operation would be unaffected no matter the direction of travel? Assuming it's a little more complex than that...!?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2017 18:18:14 GMT
I have a question...! Why is it that the doors of the front and rear cars do not open during this shuttle operation other than at Hammersmith (at least on the Eastbound wrong direction working, as those are the only journeys I have made so far)? I thought that as long as the train was berthed in the right spot of the platform, the door operation would be unaffected no matter the direction of travel? Assuming it's a little more complex than that...!? It is more complex than that, the equipment that provides CSDE (Correct Side Door Enable) and SDO (Selective Door Operation) information is only installed for the right direction. Or rather, it's installed for fully signalled movements. So at a platform like Edgware Road platform 3, where trains can arrive from both directions, the equipment is installed at both ends to allow for this. Obviously on the eastbound at Shepherd's Bush Market, trains generally only arrive in one direction, so the equipment is only at one end. As a result the CSDE override procedure needs to be carried out. Now, as we know, the S stock is quite a lot longer than some of the platforms it stops at , so to get around that, ordinarily we have Selective Door Operation (SDO), where 1-3 doors in the front and/or rear carriages may be inhibited from opening if they are not alongside the platform when the train is stopped in the correct position. As such, only doors which are alongside the platform can open, and there's no danger of anyone ending up on the tracks. The information for SDO is provided by trackside equipment which is, like I say, only installed at the end that it would be needed at in normal circumstances. In some select locations this is both ends, but usually it's only one.
Because of this, when the CSDE override procedure needs to be used, the train doesn't know where it is and it doesn't know which doors it is safe to open, so it has to assume a worst case scenario and cut out all the doors in the front and rear cars, and then there's no chance of any doors opening where it wouldn't be safe for them to open. Note that this isn't just for wrong direction moves. If you overshoot the normal stopping mark you may end up out of range of the equipment and you'll need to use the override procedure. Again the front and rear doors will be cut out, even if all of your doors are actually alongside a platform, because the train doesn't know which doors it is safe to open because it's out of range of the equipment. I should add, at Hammersmith, you actually do arrive in the right direction at the right end of the platform, so all the equipment is there and that's why the doors can be opened normally. The doors operate normally in the normal direction, it's only in the wrong direction doors need to be cut out.
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Post by wimblephil on Jun 22, 2017 18:37:30 GMT
I have a question...! Why is it that the doors of the front and rear cars do not open during this shuttle operation other than at Hammersmith (at least on the Eastbound wrong direction working, as those are the only journeys I have made so far)? I thought that as long as the train was berthed in the right spot of the platform, the door operation would be unaffected no matter the direction of travel? Assuming it's a little more complex than that...!? It is more complex than that, the equipment that provides CSDE (Correct Side Door Enable) and SDO (Selective Door Operation) information is only installed for the right direction. Or rather, it's installed for fully signalled movements. So at a platform like Edgware Road platform 3, where trains can arrive from both directions, the equipment is installed at both ends to allow for this. Obviously on the eastbound at Shepherd's Bush Market, trains generally only arrive in one direction, so the equipment is only at one end. As a result the CSDE override procedure needs to be carried out. Now, as we know, the S stock is quite a lot longer than some of the platforms it stops at , so to get around that, ordinarily we have Selective Door Operation (SDO), where 1-3 doors in the front and/or rear carriages may be inhibited from opening if they are not alongside the platform when the train is stopped in the correct position. As such, only doors which are alongside the platform can open, and there's no danger of anyone ending up on the tracks. The information for SDO is provided by trackside equipment which is, like I say, only installed at the end that it would be needed at in normal circumstances. In some select locations this is both ends, but usually it's only one.
Because of this, when the CSDE override procedure needs to be used, the train doesn't know where it is and it doesn't know which doors it is safe to open, so it has to assume a worst case scenario and cut out all the doors in the front and rear cars, and then there's no chance of any doors opening where it wouldn't be safe for them to open. Note that this isn't just for wrong direction moves. If you overshoot the normal stopping mark you may end up out of range of the equipment and you'll need to use the override procedure. Again the front and rear doors will be cut out, even if all of your doors are actually alongside a platform, because the train doesn't know which doors it is safe to open because it's out of range of the equipment. I should add, at Hammersmith, you actually do arrive in the right direction at the right end of the platform, so all the equipment is there and that's why the doors can be opened normally. The doors operate normally in the normal direction, it's only in the wrong direction doors need to be cut out. A very thorough and informative explanation there! Thank you. I know there's always a good reason for these things, it's just always good to understand the why!
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 22, 2017 19:54:07 GMT
Because of this, when the CSDE override procedure needs to be used, the train doesn't know where it is and it doesn't know which doors it is safe to open, so it has to assume a worst case scenario and If you overshoot the normal stopping mark you may end up out of range of the equipment and you'll need to use the override procedure. Again the front and rear doors will be cut out, even if all of your doors are actually alongside a platform, because the train doesn't know which doors it is safe to open because it's out of range of the equipment. Just to add a small point to tut's excellent appraisal, under the circumstance that the train remains in a braking position - not going into 'off and release', while decelerating to a stop, then the rear doors will open normally as they will be detected as fully in the platform.
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Post by spsmiler on Jun 24, 2017 16:42:15 GMT
A tangential question: is there a good reason why they aren't reversing the trains on the other end of the H&C at Paddington rather than Edgware Road? It would be much more useful to the customers. And I believe there's a crossover west of Paddington they could use. I was at Paddington on Wednesday morning and noticed that due to the H&C closure plus District Line problems the only subsurface trains serving this station were the Circles. As a result whilst waiting for my mainline train (at 8:21!) I heard frequent announcements about overcrowded platforms were causing the Underground station to be closed. Simon
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Post by andypurk on Jun 24, 2017 23:37:44 GMT
The crossover west of Paddington is not yet commissioned, and will not be until ATC is in place. The crossover west of Royal Oak remains, but has not been used for over ten years. It is hand worked and requires a number of staff to do so safely and in accordance with current procedures. The single line working to Ladbroke Grove would require yet more staff - something that will be difficult as is already proving in resourcing the single line (locked in) service. Not disagreeing with the difficulty of using the Royal Oak crossover, but it has been used in the last decade. I travelled over it on 9th October 2011, during engineering work in the Paddington area. I can remember the member of staff operating the points, I think that there was also a pilot man needed, as the move isn't (fully) signalled.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 1:49:40 GMT
The move is not signalled and the points are hand worked.
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Post by kateyay on Jun 25, 2017 7:31:22 GMT
Circle Line has tweeted to say that trains are now running again.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 25, 2017 7:45:26 GMT
Initially suspended Hammersmith-Edgware Rd, then from 0830 changed to suspended Hammersmith-Ladbroke Grove.
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Post by jacks on Jun 25, 2017 7:57:55 GMT
Are they expecting to have it fully open again soon? Would've thought changing the area of suspension would add to confusion for passengers
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Post by DWS on Jun 25, 2017 8:07:41 GMT
Initially suspended Hammersmith-Edgware Rd, then from 0830 changed to suspended Hammersmith-Ladbroke Grove. As there is no crossover at Ladbroke Grove, are trains running empty between Hammersmith to Ladbroke Grove ?
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Post by superteacher on Jun 25, 2017 8:20:20 GMT
Looks like it's fully open now.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 25, 2017 8:37:35 GMT
Initially suspended Hammersmith-Edgware Rd, then from 0830 changed to suspended Hammersmith-Ladbroke Grove. As there is no crossover at Ladbroke Grove, are trains running empty between Hammersmith to Ladbroke Grove ? trains were actually running the usual Sunday timetable from start-of-traffic but running empty, initially Hammersmith-Edgware Rd, then from 0830 changed to Hammersmith-Ladbroke Grove (some trains from Barking were displaying "Royal Oak") then from 0900 passenger services were restored.
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