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Post by bringbackcrouchhil on Aug 4, 2017 21:16:48 GMT
Hi,
I've been reading Diamond Geezer's latest post on the dot matrix at Bow Road and it reminded me that nearly every time I need to get from east London to King's Cross it always goes wrong. I watch District line train after District Line train go by longing for the magic word Hammersmith to appear on the dot matrix but it never does or takes an insufferably long time. There always seems a multitude of passengers in the same position waiting on the platform.
Why historically has Hammersmith and City line not been given more paths / priority and is it really going to get better when the signalling is (eventually) upgraded? This always hits me as rather odd as there always appears to be a fifty fifty split between passengers wanting the District and those wanting the H+C
JC
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Post by superteacher on Aug 4, 2017 23:32:34 GMT
Hi, I've been reading Diamond Geezer's latest post on the dot matrix at Bow Road and it reminded me that nearly every time I need to get from east London to King's Cross it always goes wrong. I watch District line train after District Line train go by longing for the magic word Hammersmith to appear on the dot matrix but it never does or takes an insufferably long time. There always seems a multitude of passengers in the same position waiting on the platform. Why historically has Hammersmith and City line not been given more paths / priority and is it really going to get better when the signalling is (eventually) upgraded? This always hits me as rather odd as there always appears to be a fifty fifty split between passengers wanting the District and those wanting the H+C JC To be fair it is a lot better than it was a few years ago. It will always be the poor relation in terms of frequency because it has to fit in with the District and Metropolitan lines, both of which are considered to be a higher priority.
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Post by North End on Aug 4, 2017 23:48:34 GMT
Hi, I've been reading Diamond Geezer's latest post on the dot matrix at Bow Road and it reminded me that nearly every time I need to get from east London to King's Cross it always goes wrong. I watch District line train after District Line train go by longing for the magic word Hammersmith to appear on the dot matrix but it never does or takes an insufferably long time. There always seems a multitude of passengers in the same position waiting on the platform. Why historically has Hammersmith and City line not been given more paths / priority and is it really going to get better when the signalling is (eventually) upgraded? This always hits me as rather odd as there always appears to be a fifty fifty split between passengers wanting the District and those wanting the H+C JC If you increase the number of H&Cs something else has to be taken away between Aldgate and Baker Street as this section currently can't handle any more trains than it already does - the section is 'stick to stick' through most of the traffic day as it is. Reducing the Met service would not be popular as it will mean some long waits for a through train to the branches, or alternatively losing the through service altogether to one or the other. Likewise it would almost certainly be necessary to reduce the District service, which in turn would reduce frequency on the busy south side of the circle - and any reduction in District frequency through the centre means some or all of the three western branches will also see a reduction in frequency. These too are busy, particularly Wimbledon and Richmond, and are roughly as infrequent as the H&C - especially during disruption. The general feeling is that the current situation is the best compromise that can be achieved. Things may improve with the new signalling, but with the system that LU has chosen (*) I wouldn't hold your breath. (* I use the word chosen in a loose sense as LU's indecision and mismanagement of the sub-surface resignalling over the last decade left them in a position where just one supplier was in a position to offer to tender, thus putting LU in an extremely undesirable position - and worse is likely to come when the same applies for the likes of the Piccadilly Line resignalling).
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Post by linus on Aug 5, 2017 9:46:35 GMT
The plan post-modernisation (4LM) is for 32 trains per hour on the northern half of the circle - 16 Met to Aldgate, 8 Circle and 8 H&C. This is a train every 7½ minutes, 33% more than today. If the Thales automatic signalling system works reliably, and there is no reason it shouldn't once it beds down, as on the now-exemplary Jubilee (and perhaps Northern, I don't use that frequently), then the service should be far better than now. 4LM is now due for completion around 2022, I believe, so only 5 years to wait.
Whitechapel to Liverpool Street / Moorgate, Farringdon and Paddington will of course be every 2½ mins peak, 3 mins off-peak, on the Elizabeth line from 2019. So plenty of alternatives.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2017 11:20:06 GMT
Adding to what linus said, work across the four lines has been split up to migration areas (MA's) which cover the following areas related to the H'smith & City. MA 0.5: Hammersmith (H&C) to Latimer Road MA 1: Latimer Road to Paddington (H&C) MA 2: Paddington (District/Circle/H&C) and Finchley Road to Euston Square MA 3: Euston Square to Monument and Stepney Green MA 6:Stepney Green to Becontree MA's 4 and 5 will complete the Circle and a small part of the District west/south of Earls Court Improvements to the Circle line (and lines shared with en-route) are set to go live by the end of 2019 The entirety of the of the H'smith and City will be optimised when MA 6 goes live approx 2021.
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Post by roman80 on Aug 5, 2017 12:31:03 GMT
The plan post-modernisation (4LM) is for 32 trains per hour on the northern half of the circle - 16 Met to Aldgate, 8 Circle and 8 H&C. This is a train every 7½ minutes, 33% more than today. If the Thales automatic signalling system works reliably, and there is no reason it shouldn't once it beds down, as on the now-exemplary Jubilee (and perhaps Northern, I don't use that frequently), then the service should be far better than now. 4LM is now due for completion around 2022, I believe, so only 5 years to wait. Whitechapel to Liverpool Street / Moorgate, Farringdon and Paddington will of course be every 2½ mins peak, 3 mins off-peak, on the Elizabeth line from 2019. So plenty of alternatives. Do you know the post modernisation frequency plan on the south/bottom (district) side and the eastern and western district branches?
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Post by North End on Aug 5, 2017 14:00:23 GMT
The plan post-modernisation (4LM) is for 32 trains per hour on the northern half of the circle - 16 Met to Aldgate, 8 Circle and 8 H&C. This is a train every 7½ minutes, 33% more than today. If the Thales automatic signalling system works reliably, and there is no reason it shouldn't once it beds down, as on the now-exemplary Jubilee (and perhaps Northern, I don't use that frequently), then the service should be far better than now. 4LM is now due for completion around 2022, I believe, so only 5 years to wait. The Seltrac system is reasonably reliable in itself, although nothing earth-shattering - anyone who had the misfortune to use the Northern Line during the latter part of last week will have experience of this. Throughput of trains through junctions is, however, poor. Neither the Jubilee nor the Northern are currently delivering any intensity of service beyond what could be achieved with conventional signalling, therefore in my view the system has in no way proved itself. An indicator of what could happen is seeing how the various junctions perform when the current service goes up the wall, and unfortunately the reality seems to be not good. SSR has rather more junctions than the likes of the Northern, mostly flat ones too, and that does not bode well at all.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2017 16:58:24 GMT
I wonder has the radio based system proved itself yet on a complex railway, using the traditional proven track loop system may be a better idea. The downside with radio based systems is that you still need Track Circuits (Hint = Victoria Line 2009 stock), which can be done away with in the track loop system.
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Post by t697 on Aug 5, 2017 17:34:01 GMT
I wonder has the radio based system proved itself yet on a complex railway, using the traditional proven track loop system may be a better idea. The downside with radio based systems is that you still need Track Circuits (Hint = Victoria Line 2009 stock), which can be done away with in the track loop system. The Thales system for SSR uses radio but does not use track circuits. RF tags each with unique IDs perform a function similar to JL/NL loop crossovers and there are axle counters at certain locations.
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Post by croxleyn on Aug 5, 2017 17:44:39 GMT
Trying to use the H&C/Circle from Paddington to Baker Street (returning from Bristol) has always seemed a rubbish service. How about a set of cross-overs just west of Baker Street to make it a terminus from Hammersmith? Could one even have bi-directional running from Edgware Road? Circle to/from Victoria on the southern side, to/from Hammersmith on the northern?
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Post by scheduler on Aug 11, 2017 18:17:49 GMT
The plan post-modernisation (4LM) is for 32 trains per hour on the northern half of the circle - 16 Met to Aldgate, 8 Circle and 8 H&C. This is a train every 7½ minutes, 33% more than today. If the Thales automatic signalling system works reliably, and there is no reason it shouldn't once it beds down, as on the now-exemplary Jubilee (and perhaps Northern, I don't use that frequently), then the service should be far better than now. 4LM is now due for completion around 2022, I believe, so only 5 years to wait. Whitechapel to Liverpool Street / Moorgate, Farringdon and Paddington will of course be every 2½ mins peak, 3 mins off-peak, on the Elizabeth line from 2019. So plenty of alternatives. Do you know the post modernisation frequency plan on the south/bottom (district) side and the eastern and western district branches? Well if on the northern everything that was 6 is now 8, and what was 12 is now 16, you can probably guess the southside and its branches....Richmond can't go above 8tph because of sharing only 4 platforms with Overground, there will obviously be 8tph Circle, and therefore you need 8tph Ealing, 8tph Wimbledon to Edgware Road and 8tph Wimbledon to City. That makes up the central core. Tower Hill can just reverse 8tph, so that would leave Upminster with 16tph. It is simple maths, there is no other way to do it. The only way to change the service east of Aldgate East into a more 50/50 split onto North / South sides is to adopt a double lassoo method to running these lines, rather like the Chicago Loop. I can't really see that happening.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 11, 2017 18:25:03 GMT
What do you mean by "double lassoo"? Barking-King's Cross-HSK-Westminster-Tower Hill-King's Cross-Hammersmith and vice versa?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2017 21:48:30 GMT
How about a set of cross-overs just west of Baker Street to make it a terminus from Hammersmith? It won't work - this section in on a serious gradient.
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Post by scheduler on Aug 11, 2017 22:23:24 GMT
What do you mean by "double lassoo"? Barking-King's Cross-HSK-Westminster-Tower Hill-King's Cross-Hammersmith and vice versa? No something more complex than that. Roughly speaking you run everything from Wimbledon east via Tower Hill, round to Liverpool Steet, through Edgware Road to HSK then back to Wimbledon. You take Ealing/Richmond and run the reverse to HSK - Edgware Rd - Liverpool St, Tower Hill and back through Earl's Court from whence they came. That avoids all crossing conflictions at Earl's Court and massively smoothes the District service. The other lassoo is the Upminster/Barking trains split 50/50 to North and South sides and return to Upminster/Barking when they've completed a circuit and are at Tower Hill or Liverpool Street. The problem is the Hammersmith branch could then only be a shuttle to/from Edgware Rd in order to leave space for the Met's. Also might need to run half the Met's out to Barking to make up the numbers. As I say it is not a fully formed idea and it has its drawbacks, but there is an obvious benefit to giving a 50/50 split to Upminster branch onto North / South sides and the smoother operations at Earl's Court, as because of the routing you could deliberately schedule simultaneous arrival and departures on the two platforms at Earl's Court. Of course as with all these things it fixes 2 problems (in this case Earl's Court and District East end service) but probably causes another for someone else (in this case probably the Hammersmith branch). Could be fixed if only you could 1. get to Hammersmith branch from the clockwise circle route from HSK. 2. Up the Met from Baker Street clockwise. 3. The Met's 8 car trains were allowed all the way round the Circle. None of which is the case which is why I think realistically it probably won't work. On the other hand it might be thought that the current District service to Upminster/Barking is overly intense out of necessity for serving the South side of the circle and its multiple western branches, and that a reduction in this to leave room on the north side for Met trains, to run half of them through to Barking, along with some trains from Hammersmith may be a perfect solution. Anyway, can't help feeling I'm in danger of wandering off-topic.
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Post by superteacher on Aug 11, 2017 22:29:57 GMT
What do you mean by "double lassoo"? Barking-King's Cross-HSK-Westminster-Tower Hill-King's Cross-Hammersmith and vice versa? No something more complex than that. Roughly speaking you run everything from Wimbledon east via Tower Hill, round to Liverpool Steet, through Edgware Road to HSK then back to Wimbledon. You take Ealing/Richmond and run the reverse to HSK - Edgware Rd - Liverpool St, Tower Hill and back through Earl's Court from whence they came. That avoids all crossing conflictions at Earl's Court and massively smoothes the District service. The other lassoo is the Upminster/Barking trains split 50/50 to North and South sides and return to Upminster/Barking when they've completed a circuit and are at Tower Hill or Liverpool Street. The problem is the Hammersmith branch could then only be a shuttle to/from Edgware Rd in order to leave space for the Met's. Also might need to run half the Met's out to Barking to make up the numbers. As I say it is not a fully formed idea and it has its drawbacks, but there is an obvious benefit to giving a 50/50 split to Upminster branch onto North / South sides and the smoother operations at Earl's Court, as because of the routing you could deliberately schedule simultaneous arrival and departures on the two platforms at Earl's Court. Of course as with all these things it fixes 2 problems (in this case Earl's Court and District East end service) but probably causes another for someone else (in this case probably the Hammersmith branch). Could be fixed if only you could 1. get to Hammersmith branch from the clockwise circle route from HSK. 2. Up the Met from Baker Street clockwise. 3. The Met's 8 car trains were allowed all the way round the Circle. None of which is the case which is why I think realistically it probably won't work. On the other hand it might be thought that the current District service to Upminster/Barking is overly intense out of necessity for serving the South side of the circle and its multiple western branches, and that a reduction in this to leave room on the north side for Met trains, to run half of them through to Barking, along with some trains from Hammersmith may be a perfect solution. Anyway, can't help feeling I'm in danger of wandering off-topic. Interesting idea, but as you say we have wandered off topic. Feel free to start a thread in RIPAS if you want to discuss your idea further. Thanks.
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Post by linus on Aug 12, 2017 12:32:56 GMT
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Post by toby on Aug 12, 2017 13:27:37 GMT
How about a set of cross-overs just west of Baker Street to make it a terminus from Hammersmith? It won't work - this section in on a serious gradient. Are there maps showing gradients of the lines?
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Post by croxleyn on Aug 12, 2017 17:22:41 GMT
Excuse my ignorance, but if a train can stop at Baker Street H&C, then why should it not be able to go out the way it came in, but over a set of points? I have many times had to wait outside of BS until we get clearance to enter the platform.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2017 17:45:29 GMT
Excuse my ignorance, but if a train can stop at Baker Street H&C, then why should it not be able to go out the way it came in, but over a set of points? I have many times had to wait outside of BS until we get clearance to enter the platform. The reason behind the wait before Baker Street heading towards King's Cross is usually because of a Metropolitan line service being given the route over Baker St Junction which of course is within throwing distance of the Circle and H'smith & City line platforms. There is a set of speed/approach controlled signals responsible for the sometimes slow decent into Baker Street these insure that even in the event of an overrun the train will not foul the junction which has the route set for a Met service. The video shows below an H & C service being "checked" on approach to Baker St as a Met service crosses the junction. As the route is cleared for the H & C service the starter signal at the far end of the platform is cleared and the approach controlled signal two thirds down the platform goes to green as there is now no need to protect the junction. As already mentioned some posts above the gradient west of Baker Street dosen't exactly make life easy. I won't go into more detail about service frequency as this is not the right topic to discuss on this thread.
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Post by scheduler on Aug 13, 2017 9:22:52 GMT
There are actually points east of Baker Street Junction allowing a reverse from east to west, for both Met and H&C. But using them in regular service would really muck things up. An H&C arrival at Baker Street would need to detrain all passengers (a couple of minutes), then shunt forward of the points, then driver walk back through the train, then shunt into Baker Street westbound. You are looking at at least 9 or 10 minutes for all of that. Not to mention blocking eastbound for most of that time.
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