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Post by mattb on Sept 29, 2017 22:48:10 GMT
Evening all, May I raise the point of the Piccadilly Line reliabilityof late? It seems to have taken a tumble. As I'm sure many of you have noticed, there seems to have been significant, and persistent signalling issues in the Acton Town area, that have become increasingly service disrupting over the week - as well as an ongoing lack of Train Operators for late night and Night Tube services? What are your thoughts/or information on this please? Many thanks for taking the time to read, Matt.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2017 3:29:09 GMT
Believe it or not we are trying to make the signalling more reliable but when you get kit from an outside manufacturer and it works ok on initial test but fails a few hours later in anger so to speak there’s not we can do, please remember the signalling dates from the 1960’s.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2017 21:34:30 GMT
There are currently only 5 Night Tube drivers on the Piccadilly (there should be 26ish)...
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londoner
thinking on '73 stock
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Post by londoner on Sept 30, 2017 22:06:21 GMT
Things should improve once the new signalling and the new trains have arrived. Crossrail should also relieve some pressure on the Heathrow Branch and also for those travelling to Ealing Broadway but using the Picc for some of the journey. Just have to wait it out...
I do wish drivers would be more consistent in announcing where the trains are going before and upon arrival at Acton Town however...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2017 22:29:56 GMT
It’s going to be a long wait for resignalling on the Picc about another 10 years yet
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Post by rheostar on Oct 1, 2017 8:08:13 GMT
It’s going to be a long wait for resignalling on the Picc about another 10 years yet I was going to say don't hold your breath for that one. Last I heard it was mid 20s, so in reality it'll be late 20s early 30s.
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Post by philthetube on Oct 1, 2017 8:29:16 GMT
Piccadilly Line running with severe delays at 0700 this morning due to shortage of drivers,
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 1, 2017 10:33:59 GMT
I do wish drivers would be more consistent in announcing where the trains are going before and upon arrival at Acton Town however... Where a train is going before it reaches Acton Town and where a train is going when it departs Acton Town are not always the same. Sometimes they even let the driver know.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 1, 2017 11:12:49 GMT
Things should improve once the new signalling and the new trains have arrived. As others have said don't hold your breath. The line's modernisation has slipped by 10-12 years against the original PPP deadlines. I recognise that there is / was a lot of cynicism about PPP and obviously it died but what has happened since is not exactly an exemplar of efficiency or project planning. The line's modernisation just keeps going back and back with little sign of demonstrable progress. Of course chucking away £800m on the botched SSR signalling contract hasn't helped matters nor has the current Mayor's financial straight jacket. Being selfish I am glad I don't have to commute on the Picc - the line must be falling to bits given the relentless pressure of operating the service plus the Night Tube. I know they've tried to ameliorate the signalling control system's worst weaknesses but track, power infrastructure and the rolling stock must be worn out.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Oct 1, 2017 12:02:22 GMT
The first new train isn't expected to arrive until 2023, on the basis of one in one out per week its going to take around two years to replace the 1973s, during that time the new trains are going to have to operate with the current signalling so it'll be 2025 before the Piccadilly will see any improvements.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2017 16:17:50 GMT
It's just a simple case of worm out trains and worn out track which will only get worse. Last year's wheel problems were probably caused by the poor condition of the track leading to damaged wheels on the trains.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Oct 1, 2017 17:39:52 GMT
aslefshrugged - have they even finalised the design yet? Any information about design progress has been notably absent.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Oct 1, 2017 19:37:54 GMT
It's just a simple case of worm out trains and worn out track which will only get worse. Last year's wheel problems were probably caused by the poor condition of the track leading to damaged wheels on the trains. I'd suggest that there's never 'a simple case' of anything with a multi-million/billion pound organization. We need to realise this and that not everything is in the public domain to be picked over by us amateurs.
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Post by domh245 on Oct 1, 2017 19:48:57 GMT
aslefshrugged - have they even finalised the design yet? Any information about design progress has been notably absent. In short, no. I would expect that the individual bidders (Hitachi/Bombardier, CAF, Alstom, & Siemens - although those last two have recently announced a merger of their rail divisions) are all doing their design work based on what TfL has specified, and that the next time we hear any major news will be when the contracts are signed, at which point we will see intial renders and some final tweaking of them.
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Post by scheduler on Oct 1, 2017 23:29:11 GMT
Things should improve once the new signalling and the new trains have arrived. Crossrail should also relieve some pressure on the Heathrow Branch and also for those travelling to Ealing Broadway but using the Picc for some of the journey. Just have to wait it out... I do wish drivers would be more consistent in announcing where the trains are going before and upon arrival at Acton Town however... Only a 10 year wait then
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Post by snoggle on Oct 2, 2017 0:00:31 GMT
aslefshrugged - have they even finalised the design yet? Any information about design progress has been notably absent. In short, no. I would expect that the individual bidders (Hitachi/Bombardier, CAF, Alstom, & Siemens - although those last two have recently announced a merger of their rail divisions) are all doing their design work based on what TfL has specified, and that the next time we hear any major news will be when the contracts are signed, at which point we will see intial renders and some final tweaking of them. Have we even got to the point of TfL / LU narrowing down to 2 final bidders? It is virtually impossible, and expensive, to try to keep 4 major bidders in play right up to the point of contract award. LU's procurement and technical people would be run ragged trying to keep 4 bidders in play. I've been on two very large contract LU evaluation teams so do speak from some experience. The only possible reason to do so is if the technical solutions are all extremely good / highly compliant and prices are very close and TfL is willing to split orders between suppliers. I struggle to see how that could possibly be the case even recognising this is a potentially enormous, and lucrative, overall contract for the supplier(s). I take the point in another post that not everything is in the public domain but the entire TfL capital investment programme reporting has been appalling for months. The number of quarterly investment reports issued has been much reduced and the content is less than in Boris's day and TfL were hardly a beacon of transparency then. Very little has been said about any prospective large scale projects like the remaining LU line upgrades. I've seen this before many times as an insider. It means those initiatives are subject to significant review in order to amend scope, get costs down to live within reduced budgets. It is also true for other parts of TfL such as IM, Surface Transport etc. I hope we will see some improved reporting in the near future and news about the Picc, Jub and Northern upgrades but I ain't holding my breath.
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Post by scheduler on Oct 8, 2017 12:16:31 GMT
Obviously as is very easy to figure out there's a shortage of Night Tube Picc drivers! I wonder where they all went?
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Post by PiccNT on Oct 8, 2017 14:42:04 GMT
Obviously as is very easy to figure out there's a shortage of Night Tube Picc drivers! I wonder where they all went? 18 of us went full time. Some have left, some are on sick leave, some are on annual leave, some are completing action plans and some have moved onto other jobs. Quite a few in the school and they will start to fill the vacancies from next week when I believe the first of them have their road tests.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Oct 8, 2017 15:46:24 GMT
Forgive my ignorance here, but was there some sort of plan that, at least to start with, there would be a separate and dedicated crew of nighttime drivers? How long was it envisaged to last, before the whole thing could be integrated, and night shifts beefed up accordingly?
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Post by MoreToJack on Oct 8, 2017 16:31:22 GMT
Forgive my ignorance here, but was there some sort of plan that, at least to start with, there would be a separate and dedicated crew of nighttime drivers? How long was it envisaged to last, before the whole thing could be integrated, and night shifts beefed up accordingly? Originally, yes. Night Tube duties would have been absorbed into the full time rosters with more night and weekend working for drivers (and station staff). This was the centre of the high profile work/life balance disputes of 2015 and 2016. Eventually, after much Union pressure, the Company went away and came up with the plan now in place: separate, part-time, night-shift only links for both stations and trains (but not service control!) to staff the service accordingly. Movement from part time roles into full time roles was agreed, for Trains side, to be allowed to take place after 18 months following the existing transfer and nomination processes. This was agreed by the Unions. Sadly, a good many Night Tube operators saw the position as an opportunity to 'jump the queue' rather than wait for full time to come out, or work up via stations as has happened well for many years. Realising their gamble wasn't going to pay off a stink was kicked up via the Unions resulting in the 18 month limit being reduced to 12 months - those same Unions who put the limit in place. In some cases, part time drivers have transferred to full time on the same line even before this, where vacancies are prevalent. Ultimately, these factors have combined to cause the current chronic driver shortage across the Combine - not just on the Piccadilly. Because of the goalposts being moved, LU were caught out with not enough external recruits to fill the vacancies on the part time roster. Once successful applicants came through, these were then prioritised for training courses over patiently waiting internal staff successful in the most recent full time campaign. But because there were no full time drivers available, Night Tube transfers have been rushed through (because understandably the daytime service needs to take precedence) leaving a shortage on Night Tube. Still with me? A wholly preventable chain of events and further proof of just how troublesome Night Tube is. (I still don't want to be a driver, before the usual suspects accuse me of jealousy again. 🙄)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2017 21:19:21 GMT
Forgive my ignorance here, but was there some sort of plan that, at least to start with, there would be a separate and dedicated crew of nighttime drivers? How long was it envisaged to last, before the whole thing could be integrated, and night shifts beefed up accordingly? Originally, yes. Nigh Tube duties would have been absorbed into the full time rosters with more night and weekend working for drivers (and station staff). This was the centre of the high profile work/life balance disputes of 2015 and 2016. Eventually, after much Union pressure, the Company went away and came up with the plan now in place: separate, part-time, night-shift only links for both stations and trains (but not service control!) to staff the service accordingly. Movement from part time roles into full time roles was agreed, for Trains side, to be allowed to take place after 18 months following the existing transfer and nomination processes. This was agreed by the Unions. Sadly, a good many Night Tube operators saw the position as an opportunity to 'jump the queue' rather than wait for full time to come out, or work up bi stations as has happened well for many years. Realising their gamble wasn't going to pay off a stink was kicked up via the Unions resulting in the 18 month limit being reduced to 12 months - those same Unions who put the limit in place. In some cases, part time drivers have transferred to full time on the same line even before this, where vacancies are prevalent. Ultimately, these factors have combined to cause the current chronic driver shortage across the Combine - not just on the Piccadilly. Because of the goalposts being moved, LU were caught out with not enough external recruits to fill the vacancies on the part time roster. Once successful applicants came through, these were then prioritised for training courses over patiently waiting internal staff successful in the most recent full time campaign. But because there were no full time drivers available, Night Tube transfers have been rushed through (because understandably the daytime service needs to take precedence) leaving a shortage on Night Tube. Still with me? A wholly preventable chain of events and further proof of just how troublesome Night Tube is. (I still don't want to be a driver, before the usual suspects accuse me of jealousy again. 🙄) Yawn
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Oct 8, 2017 21:35:32 GMT
<<A detailed response to Ben's questions>> Yawn Thank you for your detailed considered contribution @kingsiwel, do you perhaps have a more constructive response to Ben's questions though which might give members a little understanding of the situation?
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Post by A60stock on Mar 4, 2018 13:23:17 GMT
Have been using the night tube for a couple of weekends now and noticed the following each time:
Although the stated service is 6tph from Heathrow to cockfosters, it's not actually that in reality as on all occasions the dmis have been showing 15 min intervals, and some even longer at times.
Can anyone shed any light on whether a reduced service is actually operated? It doesn't surprise me at all given the problems with the pic.
If this is the case, why not revise the Piccadilly night tube timetable to 4tph instead of the clearly unachievable 6tph at current?
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 4, 2018 13:37:48 GMT
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Post by A60stock on Mar 4, 2018 13:44:12 GMT
the jubilee and northern were working just fine though, i cant comment on the central and victoria.
I guess the reduced service places less pressure on the infrastructure.
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 4, 2018 18:15:52 GMT
But I want to be a Night Tube driver! Oh no wait... I still don't want to be a driver, before the usual suspects accuse me of jealousy again. 🙄) (Pop the 8th of this month in your diaries if you do want to be a Night Tube driver...)
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 5, 2018 17:05:10 GMT
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