roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Feb 20, 2018 18:48:30 GMT
From the latest issue of Island Rail News, the magazine of the Isle of Wight Steam Railway, IWSR General Manager reports that at a meeting last year between interested parties including the new Island Line franchise holder, a visit was made to see the Vivarail D train project. the D train was seen as a possible front runner to replace the 1938 tube stock.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Feb 20, 2018 18:58:41 GMT
From the latest issue of Island Rail News, the magazine of the Isle of Wight Steam Railway, IWSR General Manager reports that at a meeting last year between interested parties including the new Island Line franchise holder, a visit was made to see the Vivarail D train project. the D train was seen as a possible front runner to replace the 1938 tube stock. Are they planning to lower the trackbed in the tunnel once again? Perhaps they've found a satisfactory engineering solution to fix the flooding problem that led to the use of tube scale stock in the first place.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 20, 2018 19:11:33 GMT
They would also have to raise all the platforms (or lower the tracks through them) as although the current ones are not step-free the difference in floor height will make the gap more significant - not something I imagine is compatible with accessibility legislation.
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Post by greggygreggygreg on Feb 20, 2018 19:24:31 GMT
Perhaps they are thinking of developing an open-top Vivarail for the summer so they can fit through Ryde Tunnel?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 20, 2018 20:15:18 GMT
The Vivarail trains are diesel, so the line could be de-electrified ( the infrastructure is over 50 years old anyway). That could allow the floor of Ryde Tunnel to be lowered again.
Or if the battery version is used, the batteries could be charged on the rest of the line and used to get through the dead tunnel section.
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 20, 2018 20:31:09 GMT
Very interesting! Maybe the costs work out better than conversion to a tramway!
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Feb 20, 2018 20:43:06 GMT
It is acknowledged that the island infrastructure is worn out to put it politely! Not a lot has been spent in the last 50 years, and it loses a couple of million every year. There's another major meeting planned for March according to Island News. there's also public mention for the IWSR to run into Ryde St.Johns. IWSR Board members are sworn to secrecy on certain matters but that part is public as is the fact that there's been talk of sharing workshop and storage facilities.
Proposals are to reinstate the passing loop at Brading to enable the re-introduction of a half hourly serve which must be better than the present 20/40 minute headways. Ryde St.J would be modified to allow the steam service to use the up platform, but all that is a moor point. As to what form of propulsion the D stock would use is a matter for conjecture.
Also in the same edition of Island News is that work is well underway on the construction of a replica Ryde Pier Tram. The new chassis is almost complete with air pipes being fitted before the chassis is ready for the body to be built. A new replica trailer car will be next on the list.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 23:13:40 GMT
It would be a shame to de-electrify the island line, even though the infrastructure is worn out, it would seem silly not to cough up to renew it given the vast expenses being sunk into new electrification on the mainlines. On the other hand, the island line could be a perfect testing ground for new train technology. Battery, hydrogen, and hybrid power trains could all see a future on branch lines, and the island line would be a great place to test potential future technology without impacting the wider network.
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Post by humbug on Feb 21, 2018 9:07:19 GMT
There will be a lot of deep tube stock available from around 2023 when the Piccadilly line trains start to be replaced, can the Island wait until then?
That's assuming the DTUP award goes ahead this year.
I'll find out what state the Island trains are in when we make a trip there in April. Looking forward to it!
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Post by phil on Feb 22, 2018 16:02:35 GMT
There will be a lot of deep tube stock available from around 2023 when the Piccadilly line trains start to be replaced, can the Island wait until then? That's assuming the DTUP award goes ahead this year. I'll find out what state the Island trains are in when we make a trip there in April. Looking forward to it! In a word, NO As the IOW Steam Railway has found out, prolonged exposure to salt water spray on Ride Pier is very good at rotting even the most heavy duty steel underframes - several of which have had to replaced in recent years. Given the 38 stock arrived there over 25 years ago - plus there obsolete on board equipment which needs bespoke solutions / parts, waiting around for another 5 or more years is not an option. Of course the Island line staff do their best and the passenger visible bits are unlikely to provide an indication what lies beneath as it were.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 22, 2018 17:33:44 GMT
Well, you say that, but the state of the carriage roofs at times has been both passenger visible and horrible to look at!
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Feb 22, 2018 19:12:34 GMT
Remember too the 38 stock is now 80 years old, the oldest stock in daily use in the world as far as I know.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 22, 2018 19:59:44 GMT
Remember too the 38 stock is now 80 years old, the oldest stock in daily use in the world as far as I know. The oldest standard gauge EMUs certainly. Various other railways claim various other titles, e.g. the Hythe Pier locomotives dating from 1917 are in daily use (2ft-gauge 250v DC third rail). I can't find an easy reference to how old the passenger carriages are though, but 1909 or 1922 are possible dates. I think (but am not completely certain) that the cars on the Lyton and Lynmouth Cliff Railway are original, if so they date from 1890 but the railway only runs daily from February to November.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 22, 2018 20:47:40 GMT
the oldest stock in daily use in the world as I l know Two of the locomotives, and four of the carriages, on the Achenseebahn rack railway in the Austrian Tyrol date from its opening in 1889. It runs daily from April to October.
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Post by rapidtransitman on Feb 22, 2018 20:59:57 GMT
Remember too the 38 stock is now 80 years old, the oldest stock in daily use in the world as far as I know. I'm not sure that they survived Hurricane Katrina, but New Orleans' streetcars were from the late 1800s and still in service into the 2000s.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 22, 2018 21:16:27 GMT
Some of the San Francisco cable cars are originals dating from 1889, but whether these cars are used daily I don't know.
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 22, 2018 23:19:18 GMT
Some of the railways on the Isle of Man still have their original rolling stock.
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Post by zbang on Feb 23, 2018 0:35:10 GMT
Some of the San Francisco cable cars are originals dating from 1889, but whether these cars are used daily I don't know. Without diving into the books, outside of museums I don't believe that any pre-earthquake (1907) cars exist unaltered, let alone are serviceable. There are some in service that were built in the 1890s, but AFAIK all of those have been extensively rebuilt in the last 60-80 years. How much original material remains in them is a good question. (Thanks.... now I'll have to go look all this up. There goes a couple of hours .)
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Post by superteacher on Feb 23, 2018 9:08:04 GMT
Can we keep this on topic please - this thread is supposed to be about the Isle of Wight . . .
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Post by alpinejohn on Feb 23, 2018 12:05:40 GMT
Is the rolling stock the real issue or is it power supplies? The line switched to third rail in 1967? I suspect that little has been done to upgrade the power supply equipment subsequently so most of it could be at least 40 years old. However if BR was happy to equip the line with second hand rolling stock, then it seems quite likely that they also reused a lot of the power supply equipment. If the line needs both new rolling stock and major expense on power supplies, then the case for a VivaRail solution increases significantly especially the potential to use a battery/diesel variant.
Rather than re-equip the whole line with new power supplies, batteries could be recharged on the move whilst passing over relatively short sections of energised third rail in the vicinity of a handful of feeder stations which would also significantly reduce the transmission losses which third rail systems typically suffer from on longer routes. Indeed the rest of the third rail could be lifted and sold off. Likewise the most at risk section - the pier head section - could be converted to wholly battery operation with the added benefit of reducing galvanic damage to metal elements of the pier structure.
Inherently the big ticket expense would then be the Class 230 units and a short probably over winter closure needed to lower tracks right through the Ryde tunnel so the tunnels can again accommodate mainline gauge (modified D Stock) and also install suitable enhanced drainage to prevent flooding.
I recall reading about the vast water flows which Brunel somehow managed to overcome with the Severn tunnel project, so with access to big enough pumping capacity it should be possible to keep that tunnel dry and allow Class 230 operations on the Island. Not quite full circle or as quaint as the 38s - but perhaps yes we could yet see another former underground rolling stock operating on the island - but please no dinosaur livery!
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 23, 2018 13:18:43 GMT
This would appear to be the most cost effective solution . The shed will also need to be lengthened but this has been put off for too long and the bullet needs to be bitten in my view!
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Feb 23, 2018 16:03:57 GMT
Remember too the 38 stock is now 80 years old, the oldest stock in daily use in the world as far as I know. The mods have (quite rightly) asked us to stay on-topic, however I'm going to pull rank and have a moment of indulgence. The Talyllyn Railway still uses original carriages and locomotives from the opening of the line in 1865. Now back to the isle of Wight!
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Post by zbang on Feb 23, 2018 16:52:00 GMT
Rather than re-equip the whole line with new power supplies, batteries could be recharged on the move whilst passing over relatively short sections of energised third rail in the vicinity of a handful of feeder stations which would also significantly reduce the transmission losses which third rail systems typically suffer from on longer routes. I doubt that one could get enough charge into the batteries in a "short section" of 3rd rail, and unless the train was standing at a platform you'd have to supply traction power at the same time as charging power. Battery operation might work if maybe 2/3ds of the RoW was energized (and had sufficient power supply) but I can't see it working with less. Probably not enough to be worth while.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 23, 2018 17:42:57 GMT
Could be worthwhile even if the only dead section was Ryde Tunnel, if that meant you could lower the floor to take stock built to main line dimensions - D train, class 769 or whatever.
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Feb 23, 2018 21:32:42 GMT
The island line was electrified off the back off the Bournemouth project. I've read the equipment is obsolete and needs replacing. It was specified for running 7 car trains every 15 minutes and has been worked to nowhere near that capacity for quite a few years. It is also the lack of power on the island that is causing problems. the 38 stock is to put it succinctly, shagged out. As the island line is uphill to Shanklin, trains wouldn't need to use much power coming back towards Ryde; maybe flywheel power to boost the batteries on the way back? It is the length of stock that causes problems in the tunnel as well as the overall height.
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Post by Tomcakes on Feb 24, 2018 20:23:23 GMT
I'd assume that any system of charging batteries etc is liable to be extremely costly to arrange - it may be easier to do something radical than introduce a new, bespoke system.
What this has reminded me of is that I haven't ever been to the IoW - I must go before the 38ts is ousted. Who's for a forum day trip?!
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 24, 2018 21:01:19 GMT
I'd assume that any system of charging batteries etc is liable to be extremely costly to arrange - it may be easier to do something radical than introduce a new, bespoke system. Vivarail's train can be charged from the 3rd rail, and an 8 minute charge gives a range of 40 miles. In just one layover at one of the termini it could accumulate enough charge to make two round trips between Ryde and Shanklin. vivarail.co.uk/battery-train-update/
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Post by philthetube on Feb 25, 2018 21:55:46 GMT
the oldest stock in daily use in the world as I l know Two of the locomotives, and four of the carriages, on the Achenseebahn rack railway in the Austrian Tyrol date from its opening in 1889. It runs daily from April to October. Isle of Man Steam Railway has carridges dating back to 1881, oldest loco 1984 though.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 26, 2018 14:11:10 GMT
How much would an existing design of diesel tram cost from one of the European manufacturers cost compared to battery tech/limited renewal of electric and docking stations?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 26, 2018 17:46:43 GMT
Are there any existing designs of diesel trams?
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