Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,358
|
Post by Chris M on Mar 2, 2018 12:08:44 GMT
According to this Huffington Post article (found via @ianvists) the mayor is considering/consulting on (it's not immediately clear which) renaming Latimer Road station, the closest to the site of Grenfell Tower, to "Grenfell" in honour of the victims. Renaming a station is not without cost (as discussed in relation to many other proposals) and so I'm usually against these sorts of ideas, but I can understand the motivation behind this suggestion so I'm not sure.
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Mar 2, 2018 12:50:11 GMT
To be fair the station is nowhere near the actual Latimer Road after that road was split into two when the Westway was constructed. I believe the southern bit was renamed Freston Road. So it makes sense that a renaming could take place. However, I’m not sure that naming somewhere after a disaster is necessarily a good thing.
|
|
|
Post by trt on Mar 2, 2018 13:31:18 GMT
To be fair the station is nowhere near the actual Latimer Road after that road was split into two when the Westway was constructed. I believe the southern bit was renamed Freston Road. So it makes sense that a renaming could take place. However, I’m not sure that naming somewhere after a disaster is necessarily a good thing. Why not? I mean, King's Cross...
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Mar 2, 2018 13:37:54 GMT
To be fair the station is nowhere near the actual Latimer Road after that road was split into two when the Westway was constructed. I believe the southern bit was renamed Freston Road. So it makes sense that a renaming could take place. However, I’m not sure that naming somewhere after a disaster is necessarily a good thing. Why not? I mean, King's Cross... Or Arsenal . . .
|
|
|
Post by domh245 on Mar 2, 2018 13:50:09 GMT
However, I’m not sure that naming somewhere after a disaster is necessarily a good thing. Agreed, renaming it Grenfell doesn't seem right somehow. It'd make sense to rename it more as a tribute to those who died, something based around the number 72 (number of fatalities) might work.
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 2, 2018 16:22:42 GMT
To be fair the station is nowhere near the actual Latimer Road after that road was split into two when the Westway was constructed. I believe the southern bit was renamed Freston Road. . It was - although the entrance is now at the other end of the station, on Bramley Road.
|
|
|
Post by MoreToJack on Mar 2, 2018 19:46:37 GMT
However, I’m not sure that naming somewhere after a disaster is necessarily a good thing. My understanding is that this Is something that is coming out of the local community and those directly affected by the disaster. If that's the case then it's absolutely the right thing to do; Grenfell ripped apart one of the poorest communities in the richest boroughs for the sake of a few quid. We must never forget this happened and renaming a Tube station is definitely a way of doing that. For those not aware, the Tower is mere metres from the railway, which is why it was closed as a precaution during the immediate aftermath. It certainly has the support of those of us who work on the branch and will vividly remember the sights of the fire for the rest of our days. Agreed, renaming it Grenfell doesn't seem right somehow. It'd make sense to rename it more as a tribute to those who died, something based around the number 72 (number of fatalities) might work. And the rest. There's still an awful lot of scepticism and anger from an awful lot of corners about that number. Best to avoid any reference to it at all, it'd do more harm than good. We mustn't forget what happened, and using the name is a more than fitting memorial (in my opinion, of course). Let's not even start to compare this with the folly that was renaming Gillespie Road station; King's Cross is a fair comment for the parallels between cost and corner cutting of the two incidents, but again it's not the same. Nor are 7/7 comparisons before anyone starts on those.
|
|
|
Post by domh245 on Mar 2, 2018 20:35:05 GMT
Agreed, renaming it Grenfell doesn't seem right somehow. It'd make sense to rename it more as a tribute to those who died, something based around the number 72 (number of fatalities) might work. And the rest. There's still an awful lot of scepticism and anger from an awful lot of corners about that number. Best to avoid any reference to it at all, it'd do more harm than good. We mustn't forget what happened, and using the name is a more than fitting memorial (in my opinion, of course). Fair point, I hadn't quite appreciated the level of scepticism and anger about that number. I had felt that using it would be a slightly more tasteful way of commemorating it (Seventy Two Park, or something along those lines), but I can see that putting a specific number on it (and to some extent, going with just the official number of fatalities when it'll have also severely affected far more) probably isn't the best way. I still feel that simply going with Grenfell isn't the best way to go forward with it either, in some respects it feels a bit too simple (or at least, not particularly elegant), but perhaps that is exactly the sort of stark reminder that is needed.
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 2, 2018 20:58:00 GMT
King's Cross is a fair comment for the parallels between cost and corner cutting of the two incidents, but again it's not the same. In particular, the station was not named after the disaster but had already been there for over 140 years. (It is actually named after a long-gone statue of George IV)
|
|
Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282
|
Post by Ben on Mar 2, 2018 21:55:15 GMT
Grenfell ripped apart one of the poorest communities in the richest boroughs for the sake of a few quid. Yes, and its rather disgraceful that the coming rise in council tax is being linked to the cost of the disaster by some media. Out of interest, where does the name 'Grenfell' come from originally? I'm all for it. You have such things as 'Tolpuddle Street', why not a Grenfell tube station - as noted the current name is archaic and misleading.
|
|
|
Post by John Tuthill on Mar 2, 2018 22:12:02 GMT
Grenfell ripped apart one of the poorest communities in the richest boroughs for the sake of a few quid. Yes, and its rather disgraceful that the coming rise in council tax is being linked to the cost of the disaster by some media. Out of interest, where does the name 'Grenfell' come from originally?I'm all for it. You have such things as 'Tolpuddle Street', why not a Grenfell tube station - as noted the current name is archaic and misleading. Greenfell Road, named after Field Marshal Lord Grenfell. Latimer Road, comes from Edward Latimer, a 17th philanthropist who donated a large amount of his fortune to charity. So, do you leave the name as is,or re-name it after a soldier?
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,358
|
Post by Chris M on Mar 2, 2018 23:11:32 GMT
Well, you'd be renaming it in memory of a disaster occurring in a building named after a road named after a soldier, rather that directly after a soldier.
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 3, 2018 4:08:35 GMT
|
|
|
Post by brigham on Mar 3, 2018 8:36:56 GMT
These public outpourings of grief are embarrassing, in my view. I pass one in Hartlepool which marks where someone's dog was killed. They are in danger of becoming trivial. The Grenfell disaster should be marked with a sombre and dignified memorial, when the political and emotional wrangling is over. Knee-jerk reactions are no substitute for rationality.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2018 9:47:27 GMT
The Grenfell disaster should be marked with a sombre and dignified memorial, when the political and emotional wrangling is over. Knee-jerk reactions are no substitute for rationality. I don't hold an opinion on this particular renaming, but in general I agree that renamings should not be knee-jerk and should be deeply thought through. My view is any renaming should not be implemented until 10 years after being first proposed (except by Act of Parliament, say). That would give some time for the community to consider whether this is something they definitely want. The politician who implements it would not be the politician who proposed it, which I think would be a very good thing. Area names are very important; they transcend time in a way few other things do and shape history. From the Domesday book we know the names of areas of Britain from 1000 years ago. If Latimer Road station were renamed Grenfell, the area would doubtless start to become known as Grenfell. This may be the right thing to do; but we need to be sure of it and that takes time.
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Mar 3, 2018 10:08:17 GMT
These public outpourings of grief are embarrassing, in my view. I pass one in Hartlepool which marks where someone's dog was killed. They are in danger of becoming trivial. The Grenfell disaster should be marked with a sombre and dignified memorial, when the political and emotional wrangling is over. Knee-jerk reactions are no substitute for rationality. I think the term "embarrassing" is maybe a bit strong, but I do take your point in that a lot of people jump on the bandwagon when things like this happen. I do think there should be some form of memorial, because the travesty of this disaster should not be forgotten, as it was totally preventable. MOD COMMENT: This has been a really good discussion so far, but I would urge all posters to be sensitive as at the end of the day, over 70 people lost their lives. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by croxleyn on Mar 3, 2018 10:16:31 GMT
It's fine to have Grenfell on station maps, and the front of the building, when one can consider it sombrely, but the on-train announcements (The next station is...) by their very nature have to be very clear, and almost up-beat, so I'm not so sure of that.
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,358
|
Post by Chris M on Mar 3, 2018 11:50:32 GMT
These public outpourings of grief are embarrassing, in my view. You've just reminded me of a quote I first heard in the aftermath of Princess Diana's death.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2018 15:41:24 GMT
It's fine to have Grenfell on station maps, and the front of the building, when one can consider it sombrely, but the on-train announcements (The next station is...) by their very nature have to be very clear, and almost up-beat, so I'm not so sure of that. I can see this becoming a problem but I'm sure an exception could be made to make it sound more somber. 2 things could happen from my viewpoint. People become outraged that the station name isn't changed or people become outraged by the fact that the "mind the gap" used on the s stock will sound painfully happy after. I could see TFL announcing that specific station as a pre-recorded full sentence rather than mix and match. I'm for this whole renaming as it could be the start of something. Cities could hold onto their (unfortunate) past disasters by renaming nearby stations. The only problem is, in the most respectful way possible, the tube could one day be filled with many depressingly-named stations but that won't happen anytime soon.
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,358
|
Post by Chris M on Mar 3, 2018 16:12:07 GMT
What would be the threshold for renaming a station though? What would happen if a station was renamed for a disaster and then a couple of years later another disaster happened near the same station? Do you pick the worst one? How do you define worst - 30 adults dying when a theatre balcony collapses or 20 children dying in a gas explosion? How close does the station have to be? Does it matter that the closest station is in a different community? Do you exclude terrorist attacks? If not, does renaming a station become a target to achieve? If so, who defines "terrorist" (terrorist organisations claiming responsibility is not a reliable guide)?
I'm not necessarily against renaming Latimer Road Grenfell, but I don't think it should be regarded as any sort of usual thing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2018 16:55:13 GMT
Hopefully, it wouldnt be a frequent thing. You could say there are too many complications but then again, why is Latimer road different? If I had to give a general overview, it would be only for occasions that will be remembered for peoples incompatence and a reminder of the very much broken society we live in. Grenfell happened in one of the richest boroughs in London and I am sure I'm getting a bit controversial now terrorist attacks are different. Terrorists want to spread fear, so it'll do no good to commemorate their completed objective. Some things just feel right and a non-political system could hopefully be developed but at the fear of getting too off topic, I'll stop there.
Edit: I guess answering my own question, the thing that made Grenfell different was that it could have been stopped so easily but it wasn't because the council chose money over lives. You can commemorate an attack but an attack can't necessarily be stopped. Grenfell could be stopped and only disasters of such significance would take a spot on the tube map.
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Mar 3, 2018 17:07:07 GMT
Another thought occurred to me:
If the station is renamed Grenfell, would that attract unwanted attention from certain people who may see it as a target?
|
|
Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282
|
Post by Ben on Mar 3, 2018 17:35:09 GMT
A point further to a common theme above. Grenfell was indeed a foreseeable and avoidable and unnecessary tragedy that had myriad roots in money, politics, class, apathy, business, plausibly negligence, etc. Perhaps if the station is renamed it becomes just that bit more difficult to ignore the reasons behind it? If it seeps into the national/regional/local subconscious there is a small but possible chance that the systematic failure within various institutions will be under pressure to reform/revert/improve? If a Grenfell tube station popularised the cause of improved fire safety, building regulations, and a capable and empowered fire service, would anyone be complaining?
A quick google reveals past names for the area have included Piggeries, Potteries, and Notting Dale. Actually, the history of the area is interesting but sad.
Edit: since this thread has broadened at times into renamings in general, might I suggest that it'd be more cost effective to combine any potential name change with any others that are thought worthy simultaneously? I know there are a couple of other campaigns going (along with a couple of others that don't seem to have much merit).
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,358
|
Post by Chris M on Mar 3, 2018 18:37:36 GMT
Certainly if there are other stations on the SSR that are going to be renamed, doing it at the same time would be cost effective. I'm honestly not sure whether it would make much difference if say White Hart Lane were renamed on the same day or not.
|
|
|
Post by gantshillmob on Mar 4, 2018 10:15:13 GMT
another possible option - i've always thought that 'Hammersmith and City' was a bit of a mouthful compared to all the single name lines. If the line was renamed the Grenfell Line, this would feel like a more London-wide memorial to the disaster.
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Mar 4, 2018 10:31:21 GMT
And we are now drifting off topic . . .
|
|
rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,222
|
Post by rincew1nd on Mar 4, 2018 11:11:15 GMT
It'd make sense to rename it more as a tribute to those who died, something based around the number 72 (number of fatalities) might work. Numbers can be powerful in their simplicity, just mention the number 96 on Merseyside or example. However the number refers to those whose lives were prematurely curtailed and whilst they shouldn't be forgotten the disaster is about so much more than that. My understanding is that this Is something that is coming out of the local community and those directly affected by the disaster. If that's the case then it's absolutely the right thing to do; Grenfell ripped apart one of the poorest communities in the richest boroughs for the sake of a few quid. We must never forget this happened and renaming a Tube station is definitely a way of doing that. I am in complete agreement that a memorial is needed, I'd have preferred it that we'd "fixed" the problems the survivors continue to face though before we started to think about a memorial. I guess one of my concerns about renaming a station is that stations (to most people, perhaps not members here though) are mundane, just a place to pass through. Surely the 72 deserve better than that? If you're telling someone how to get to where you live, do you really want to be saying "get off at Grenfell"? I'm not averse to the concept, I just think we can do better.
|
|
|
Post by trt on Mar 4, 2018 13:15:31 GMT
Grenfell Memorial, I think, would just about pass. But would that mutate to just Grenfell? Who knows?
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,358
|
Post by Chris M on Mar 4, 2018 13:45:33 GMT
Grenfell Memorial, I think, would just about pass. But would that mutate to just Grenfell? Who knows? It would quite likely mutate to either "Grenfell" or "Memorial" in local usage, many (but not all) stations with long names get simplified in this way - for example, take the train to "Canary" is something I've heard on multiple occasions, "King's Cross" is not uncommonly referred to as "The Cross", Oxford Circus does get called "Oxo" and the third word of "High Street Kensington" is used significantly less than the first two. In contrast though I'm not aware that Leicester Square, Island Gardens, White City, or Bromley-by-Bow get shortened.
|
|
|
Post by nickf on Mar 4, 2018 14:00:33 GMT
To me, and I suspect to others of my age, the name Grenfell is initially associated with Joyce Grenfell. Joyce Grenfell LinkI wonder if this possible confusion (in the mind of an old guy who lives out of town) is sufficiently worth while taking into account?
|
|