7car R and CO/CP stock questions

[d7666]

Specific to the post-1971 situation and 7car trains:

I've tried to understand this from research, but sources are ambiguous, and while I have read most of Piers Connor's major District Line item that appeared in LURS I don't have every chapter.

I know the 7car trains were formed when attaching / detaching sections in traffic ended. But most sources seem to use the word 'permanent' 7car formation to explain this. Now does this mean what I think it means - that 7car trains were permanent in traffic for a traffic day or period not uncoupling, but could still be reshuffled for engineering needs at night, and not actually in fully fixed long term permanent formations ? It is the word permanent I am finding ambiguous.

I know there were certain dis-allowed CO/CP permutations related to guards positions, but, after allowing for that, did they freely mix and match 3+2+2 combinations (subject to A and D ends)?

Likewise R stock, were the 5+2 and 3+3 units also freely mixed and matched outside of traffic ?

Reason I am asking is some notes from a handful of travels in 1977 / 1978 are a bit imprecise!


Traction motors:

R stock new had LT111 motors and as far as I can determine all three of BTH MV and CP supplied some. Is it known how many were supplied by which maker? Were these kept in specific groups to a car, to a unit, etc or were they in a single pool, considered identical, and over time any car/unit/train could have any maker's motor anywhere?


O/P stock - what motors did they have and supplied by who ? Same question as R, over time were they pooled and mixed up ? I assume the original Metadyne sets had MV motors since MV supplied the metadyne kit, but the rest ?

--
Nick

[metman]

Right where to start!

The reformations from 1971 were more traumatic for the R stock than the CO/CP stock. The R stock were reformed into 5, 3 and 2 car units which you know. It is my understanding that the formations were no different from today’s formations. In day to day service the units remained together but could be split for maintenance and for defects.

I’m not sure of the ratio of manufacturers who produced the motors for the CO/CP stock but they were Met Vickers MV 145 AZ.

The Metadyne machines for the O/P stock were not interchangeable but this is not relevant post 1965!

The compressors moved around with the scrapping of 21 R47 position 2 cars their DH2 compressors found their way below some CO/CP cars so there was a mix with the CP30 type.

[countryman]

As far as I recall, coupling a 2 car unit to the east end of a 6 car train was the normal process until the units were reformed. I just about remember watching the extra Q stock cars being attached at Ealing Broadway in the early 60s.

[crusty54]

Soon after I started work at 55 Broadway in 1972 I was waiting on the platform at St James's Park when a not in service CO/CP train passed me. The red train then turned silver.

I realised the R stock was pushing the CO/CP.

[norbitonflyer]

Mar 13, 2018 19:03:53 GMT countryman said:

. I just about remember watching the extra Q stock cars being attached at Ealing Broadway in the early 60s.

I thought Q stock was always formed as 4 car units MTTM.

[metman]

They were, but latterly they were operated as 6 car units with two extra cars added in the peaks.

M-T-T-M+T-M+(T-M)

Going off topic slightly there was a plan to reorganise the Q stock to M-T-M+M-T+M to provide more power and better acceleration to keep up with the R stock.

Back to formations it wasn’t uncommon for ad-hoc formations to be formed from R and CO/CP stock including 5 car of both and 6 car all motor car trains.

[roythebus]

R and CO/CP stock was "unit" stock and was semi-permanently coupled in units; Q stock was "car" stock and individual cars could be coupled/uncoupled at will. In practice Q stock was left coupled as 6 cars with the east end 2 cars being added when required.

[d7666]

Mar 13, 2018 18:57:48 GMT metman said:

Right where to start!

The reformations from 1971 were more traumatic for the R stock than the CO/CP stock. The R stock were reformed into 5, 3 and 2 car units which you know. It is my understanding that the formations were no different from today’s formations. In day to day service the units remained together but could be split for maintenance and for defects.

I’m not sure of the ratio of manufacturers who produced the motors for the CO/CP stock but they were Met Vickers MV 145 AZ.

The Metadyne machines for the O/P stock were not interchangeable but this is not relevant post 1965!

The compressors moved around with the scrapping of 21 R47 position 2 cars their DH2 compressors found their way below some CO/CP cars so there was a mix with the CP30 type.

thanks

yes appreciate traumatic

main line anoraks go on about the complexities of the SR 4Cep refurbishing but that was all done in works over a long period. Getting O P R all reformed to 7car was not simple nor protracted and in service.

Thanks on units, thats what I think, depots could and did reform units into different trains.

Ditto thanks on motors, I'll follow up MV145az .

--
Nick