|
Post by drainrat on Sept 26, 2018 7:41:46 GMT
Most of the group I work with at my depot haven't the first clue why the strike has been called. Most don't care but are willing to comply with the union for this strike call but will think long and hard if another is called. That's an interesting point, especially in view of the quote from the RMT (below): ". . .comprehensive breakdown in industrial relations, abuse of procedures and the reneging on key safety and operational improvements promised by management after previous rounds of industrial action".A lot of fair pay and conditions were won by people willing to stand and fight the long fight, I think we are slowly accepting the new breed aren't willing to and thus all those items that made the job so attractive to them, will slowly be taken away. Be careful what you wish for 🙄 I knew what the strike is over, same as what the ballots have been for on the Central line, it hasn't been a sudden surprise, but a build up that's been going on for past 2 yrs, and both unions have been very vocal about it too. Trouble is, social media and the press are confusing people about what's going on, including drivers, or just that people are so connected to their cyber worlds, they zone out of reality 🤔
|
|
rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,223
|
Post by rincew1nd on Sept 26, 2018 8:27:39 GMT
Trouble is, social media and the press are confusing people about what's going on, including drivers, or just that people are so connected to their cyber worlds, they zone out of reality 🤔 Maybe the unions have some work to do then communicating to their members? If the unions occupied these 'cyber worlds' would they be more effective?
|
|
|
Post by drainrat on Sept 26, 2018 9:04:48 GMT
Trouble is, social media and the press are confusing people about what's going on, including drivers, or just that people are so connected to their cyber worlds, they zone out of reality 🤔 Maybe the unions have some work to do then communicating to their members? If the unions occupied these 'cyber worlds' would they be more effective? I believe they do, but can't begin to compete with the cogs of the machine, of which they are a part of. I mean, look at the woman who walked straight on to the track at Baker st, whilst hypnotised by her 'cyber world', and looked elsewhere to blame cause she was so deep in trance, it couldn't have possibly been her fault, that's some heavy juju. Id also add, people talk about 'the unions' as an abstract, but if they pay their subs, they ARE the union 😉 the world is what it is, unions always will play catch up
|
|
|
Post by SunSeeker on Sept 26, 2018 14:43:43 GMT
Big thank you to the drivers on strike, get to close my station so a nice easy day at 'work' for the next 7 hours or so.
Good thing I got my iPad charger..
Also I completely agree with the strike, it happens on stations too where management seem to think they can just do whatever they want and not treat us like actual human beings.
|
|
|
Post by PiccNT on Sept 26, 2018 14:47:17 GMT
Big thank you to the drivers on strike, get to close my station so a nice easy day at 'work' for the next 7 hours or so. Good thing I got my iPad charger.. Also I completely agree with the strike, it happens on stations too where management seem to think they can just do whatever they want and not treat us like actual human beings. So you know what it's all about then :-)
|
|
|
Post by goldenarrow on Sept 26, 2018 15:06:58 GMT
Well there we are, service was gradually wound down starting with the Uxbridge/Rayners Lane - Acton Town service then making it's way east finishing up with a reported three trains between Arnos Grove at Cockfosters, line suspension put up at 16:05.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2018 15:27:56 GMT
As I type this there is a westbound with an Acton Town TD and eastbound train at Caledonian Road and another going east at Bounds Green both with Arnos Grove TD's
|
|
|
Post by SunSeeker on Sept 26, 2018 16:00:12 GMT
Big thank you to the drivers on strike, get to close my station so a nice easy day at 'work' for the next 7 hours or so. Good thing I got my iPad charger.. Also I completely agree with the strike, it happens on stations too where management seem to think they can just do whatever they want and not treat us like actual human beings. So you know what it's all about then :-) Yep I regularly read the RMT London Calling website.
|
|
|
Post by 35b on Sept 26, 2018 16:25:36 GMT
So you know what it's all about then :-) Yep I regularly read the RMT London Calling website. A neutral source...
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,388
|
Post by Chris M on Sept 26, 2018 17:07:08 GMT
Is there a source that is both neutral and in possession of all the relevant facts in a dispute between a union and management (regardless of union, management or dispute)? In this case the RMT is not a neutral source and TfL is not a neutral source (despite tending to use less emotive language).
|
|
|
Post by drainrat on Sept 26, 2018 18:09:01 GMT
Is there a source that is both neutral and in possession of all the relevant facts in a dispute between a union and management (regardless of union, management or dispute)? In this case the RMT is not a neutral source and TfL is not a neutral source (despite tending to use less emotive language). And neither is a non.... As the saying goes "the truth is a 3 edged sword, there's my edge, there's your edge, there's the 3rd party edge, But the sword is the truth!" Management will feel aggrieved because staff don't like changes to conditions....... Staff (in general) will feel aggrieved because how the change etc. affects them, though some staff will side with Management for whatever reason..... Customers (passengers) will generally always side with Management, because they will usually only hear their side through the media..... True story, before station staff cuts strike of 2009, an irate passenger approached me at Epping to remonstrate 'ordering' me not to go on strike. I tried to explain to him what the strike was over, but he had already been bought on the gumph from the Evening Standard. The strikes occurred.... About a month or so later, the same passenger approached me at Epping, again remonstrating, but this time it was because there was no one there to deal with his problem(s). I reminded him of a couple months before and asked if he thought I'd been lying, and he said "Well, you obviously didn't fight hard enough then did you?!" Pretty much explains my whole experience of TU action on the underground. We ballot/strike.....media/management machine undermines the result and be under no illusion, they lie........public turns on us.......both public and us get royally f****d.......public blames us for being in the predicament 😂
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 26, 2018 23:21:27 GMT
Trouble is, social media and the press are confusing people about what's going on, including drivers, or just that people are so connected to their cyber worlds, they zone out of reality 🤔 Maybe the unions have some work to do then communicating to their members? If the unions occupied these 'cyber worlds' would they be more effective? I get most of my ASLEF communication through text messages, Twitter and Facebook while my depot has a Whatapps group.
|
|
|
Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 9:46:15 GMT
Maybe the unions have some work to do then communicating to their members? If the unions occupied these 'cyber worlds' would they be more effective? I get most of my ASLEF communication through text messages, Twitter and Facebook while my depot has a Whatapps group. Yes, both the unions at Leytonstone have, we are all kept in the loop, and I know the RMT Finsbury Park branch are very vocal in their comms. When I was a rep, I found a lot of people had 'selective' hearing when it came to industrial action I'm afraid 😔
|
|
|
Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 9:53:52 GMT
Yep I regularly read the RMT London Calling website. A neutral source... I don't understand, why, do you expect it to be neutral? 🤔
|
|
hobbayne
RIP John Lennon and George Harrison
Posts: 516
|
Post by hobbayne on Sept 27, 2018 9:57:52 GMT
I don't understand, why, do you expect it to be neutral? 🤔 He wants to hear the managers side of things I suppose.
|
|
|
Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 10:12:49 GMT
I don't understand, why, do you expect it to be neutral? 🤔 He wants to hear the managers side of things I suppose. Really, read any newspaper, media outlet to hear the managers side 😉
|
|
|
Post by 35b on Sept 27, 2018 10:59:14 GMT
I don't understand, why, do you expect it to be neutral? 🤔 I don’t. But I have a logical problem with the assertion that it is possible to know all about an issue by taking the view of one protagonist in that issue.
|
|
|
Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 11:10:56 GMT
I don't understand, why, do you expect it to be neutral? 🤔 I don’t. But I have a logical problem with the assertion that it is possible to know all about an issue by taking the view of one protagonist in that issue. I totally agree, but we get to points that take many twists and turns, ultimately, it all depends on how it affects an individual/group. Whenever I went in to a meeting, my stance was always to debate for the side I represented, that is logical, it is also logical for the person taking the opposing agenda to debate against me. However, with the issue of industrial action, my experience over 25 yrs in the grade is that a ballot is the very LAST step, I have never known it to be threatened until talks have completely broken down, from my perspective(s) over that period I have never known a ballot to be taken without goading in the first instance from the other side to take strike action, c'est la vie!......when has their ever been a 'neutral' party?......on a deeper philosophical level, there isn't really, when battle lines are drawn, neutrality is almost impossible, even the Swiss took sides during WW2 😉 How long do you think it takes from initial talks to strike action?
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 27, 2018 11:21:13 GMT
My experience over the last 21 years is that apart from the 2001 strikes against the "Public-Private Partnership" every strike has been a result of management failing to abide by agreed procedures.
|
|
|
Post by 35b on Sept 27, 2018 12:40:19 GMT
I don’t. But I have a logical problem with the assertion that it is possible to know all about an issue by taking the view of one protagonist in that issue. I totally agree, but we get to points that take many twists and turns, ultimately, it all depends on how it affects an individual/group. Whenever I went in to a meeting, my stance was always to debate for the side I represented, that is logical, it is also logical for the person taking the opposing agenda to debate against me. However, with the issue of industrial action, my experience over 25 yrs in the grade is that a ballot is the very LAST step, I have never known it to be threatened until talks have completely broken down, from my perspective(s) over that period I have never known a ballot to be taken without goading in the first instance from the other side to take strike action, c'est la vie!......when has their ever been a 'neutral' party?......on a deeper philosophical level, there isn't really, when battle lines are drawn, neutrality is almost impossible, even the Swiss took sides during WW2 😉 How long do you think it takes from initial talks to strike action? On true neutrality, you may have a point! As for the stage needed for a ballot to be called or approved, I read what you say, but the public rhetoric from the rail unions, RMT in particular, gives a very different perspective on their approach to negotiation.
|
|
|
Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 14:55:09 GMT
I totally agree, but we get to points that take many twists and turns, ultimately, it all depends on how it affects an individual/group. Whenever I went in to a meeting, my stance was always to debate for the side I represented, that is logical, it is also logical for the person taking the opposing agenda to debate against me. However, with the issue of industrial action, my experience over 25 yrs in the grade is that a ballot is the very LAST step, I have never known it to be threatened until talks have completely broken down, from my perspective(s) over that period I have never known a ballot to be taken without goading in the first instance from the other side to take strike action, c'est la vie!......when has their ever been a 'neutral' party?......on a deeper philosophical level, there isn't really, when battle lines are drawn, neutrality is almost impossible, even the Swiss took sides during WW2 😉 How long do you think it takes from initial talks to strike action? On true neutrality, you may have a point! As for the stage needed for a ballot to be called or approved, I read what you say, but the public rhetoric from the rail unions, RMT in particular, gives a very different perspective on their approach to negotiation. I agree, but knowing personally some of the aggressive characters in the RMT, I get more a sense of utter frustration from them when I talk to them. Sometimes I do find myself shaking my head when I see them perform on the TV THOUGH
|
|
|
Post by philthetube on Sept 27, 2018 15:18:17 GMT
Is there a source that is both neutral and in possession of all the relevant facts in a dispute between a union and management (regardless of union, management or dispute)? In this case the RMT is not a neutral source and TfL is not a neutral source (despite tending to use less emotive language). I keep saying this and nobody seems to pick it up. Before a strike make it mandatory for the two sides to get together and have a public meeting, Advantages:- The public can make informed decisions about who is to blame as they would have all relevant facts Train staff will not strike and lose money if they feel the dispute is not justified Unions will not call strikes if they feel there is a risk of staff working through it after seeing both sides. Managers would have to be honest. Politicians would have to be honest. (First time in history) I am sure there are other positives to be added, and I would be interested to hear any perceived negatives
|
|
|
Post by rheostar on Sept 27, 2018 15:28:36 GMT
Last week I was chatting to one of the Piccadilly line Service Controllers. He was saying that one of the T/Ops complaints was that they don’t like the way the Controllers speak to them or give instructions over the radio. The RMT train side reps insisted that all Piccadilly line Controllers go on a course on ‘how to speak to people’ or something of that ilk.
However, the Controllers with their RMT and TESSA reps are refusing point blank to go on any courses. They believe they’ve done nothing wrong and are just doing their job.
This could run and run.
|
|
|
Post by littlejohn on Sept 27, 2018 15:40:36 GMT
So is the RMT on both sides of the negotiating table?
|
|
|
Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 15:47:23 GMT
So is the RMT on both sides of the negotiating table? They could be, it's quite the dichotomy
|
|
|
Post by John Tuthill on Sept 27, 2018 15:55:03 GMT
Last week I was chatting to one of the Piccadilly line Service Controllers. He was saying that one of the T/Ops complaints was that they don’t like the way the Controllers speak to them or give instructions over the radio. The RMT train side reps insisted that all Piccadilly line Controllers go on a course on ‘how to speak to people’ or something of that ilk. However, the Controllers with their RMT and TESSA reps are refusing point blank to go on any courses. They believe they’ve done nothing wrong and are just doing their job. This could run and run. This reminds me of a line from Spike Milligans memoirs when he was before an officer on a charge. Officer: "Well Milligan what have you to say?" Milligan: "Well sir.........." Only to be interuppted by an NCO shouting: SILENCE WHEN YOU SPEAK TO AN OFFICER!"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2018 16:13:02 GMT
Any conversation via connect is recorded so identifying an issue could easily be dealt with swiftly if either party has a concern in the way they are spoken too.There is simple concise instructions on how connect should be used and the way people speak to each other on it.
|
|
|
Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 16:19:31 GMT
Last week I was chatting to one of the Piccadilly line Service Controllers. He was saying that one of the T/Ops complaints was that they don’t like the way the Controllers speak to them or give instructions over the radio. The RMT train side reps insisted that all Piccadilly line Controllers go on a course on ‘how to speak to people’ or something of that ilk. However, the Controllers with their RMT and TESSA reps are refusing point blank to go on any courses. They believe they’ve done nothing wrong and are just doing their job. This could run and run. This reminds me of a line from Spike Milligans memoirs when he was before an officer on a charge. Officer: "Well Milligan what have you to say?" Milligan: "Well sir.........." Only to be interuppted by an NCO shouting: SILENCE WHEN YOU SPEAK TO AN OFFICER!" "I told you I was ill!"
|
|
|
Post by rheostar on Sept 27, 2018 16:29:30 GMT
So is the RMT on both sides of the negotiating table? So it would seem.
|
|
|
Post by drainrat on Sept 27, 2018 16:34:04 GMT
So is the RMT on both sides of the negotiating table? So it would seem. They always have been. Train Managers and Duty Reliability Managers have their own ASLEF branch and reps on the MATS council (now, for the life of me, I can't remember what MATS stands for, but assume the M is for Management)
|
|