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Post by bearbin on Jul 21, 2018 22:16:16 GMT
I was on a train at Sloane Square Eastbound on Thursday (2018-07-19) and observed some rather odd behaviour with the doors. The train stopped normally but the doors didn't open for about 15 seconds, and when they did the driver had got out and was standing out on the platform. None of the doors in the first and last carriages opened either.
I'm guessing that there must have been some problem with the CSDE system and the driver had to override it (thus explaining the doors not opening in the first/last carriages and the delay), but the train looked to be berthed correctly from where I was standing. Is there a particularly tight stopping point at Sloane Square or is it possible that the system just malfunctioned? I'm also not sure why the driver got out of the cab - I thought perhaps to verify that the platform was clear without a CCTV feed?
Of course I may have got it completely wrong - any other suggestions would be welcomed.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jul 21, 2018 22:34:36 GMT
I think the procedure for overriding CSDE* requires the driver to place at least one foot on the platform before/while doing so - this is to make it very difficult (maybe impossible?) to open the doors on the non-platform side.
*CSDE = correct side door enable, the system that ensures that only doors on the platform side of the train are opened. SDO = selective door opening, the system that determines which doors do and do not open when not all of them are, normally used where the train is longer than the platform or it is otherwise not safe to use some doors.
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Post by superteacher on Jul 21, 2018 22:39:10 GMT
I don’t think this was a CSDE failure. Sounds like the train “forgot” where it was. In those cases, the train can’t be sure that the station doesn’t have a short platform, therefore the system errs on the side of caution by not opening the doors in the end carriages.
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Post by goldenarrow on Jul 21, 2018 23:01:51 GMT
As Chris M says in most cases the driver is expected (where possible) to step on to the platform as the CSDE/SDO switch would need to have been cut out (being the usual safe guards for doors opening) which explains the 15 sec delay. Just as superteacher described, this photo taken by myself at Ealing Com WB was an S7 berthed in the correct position but the system clearly didn't get absolute confirmation and hence the same thing ensued.
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Post by bearbin on Jul 22, 2018 13:20:47 GMT
Thanks for the clarification - the driver stepping onto the platform seems obvious now in hindsight, it's certainly a good safeguard against the wrong doors being opened. I'm still surprised that this is a common fault, although I suppose if it doesn't really affect safety or cause delays then it's not unacceptable.
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Post by goldenarrow on Jul 22, 2018 15:15:14 GMT
I'm still surprised that this is a common fault, although I suppose if it doesn't really affect safety or cause delays then it's not unacceptable. Used to happen quite alot when the S8's were rolled out during 2010/2011, It had something to do with discrepancies between what the driver saw from their perspective and what the train's systems regarded as an accurate stop. The result meant that stopping beyond the second chevron at certain stations gave a bogus overrun command. Since 2012, I've only witnessed this twice, once during heavy snow and the second above which as it turned out was caused by suspected damage sustained by a bird strike. Now days it's a rare occurrence and even when it does happen, those walkthrough gangways mean minimal disruption to passengers something which the 1995 and 1996 stocks (not on the JLE) cannot or do not utilise in the event of an overrun.
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Post by t697 on Jul 22, 2018 15:21:03 GMT
Bird strike?! Really? Do tell us more.
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Post by goldenarrow on Jul 22, 2018 15:40:26 GMT
Bird strike?! Really? Do tell us more. I asked the T'OP at Ealing Broadway what had gone wrong at Ealing Common and he said it was most likely a faulty equipment on the train, I know that the OPO antennas that give the platform interface images for the cab are bolted below the front running plates so I'd assume that CDSE antennas would be similarly located. As to the prime suspect, "Walk up and have a smell", he wasn't kidding, not much left but the stench...
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 22, 2018 16:18:12 GMT
I'm guessing that there must have been some problem with the CSDE system and the driver had to override it (thus explaining the doors not opening in the first/last carriages and the delay), but the train looked to be berthed correctly from where I was standing. Is there a particularly tight stopping point at Sloane Square or is it possible that the system just malfunctioned? I'm also not sure why the driver got out of the cab The train may simply have overrun the stopping mark by a few inches? If the train has gone out of the braking arc then the rear doors will also remain closed. The cab door on the platform side must be opened for the ‘emergency open’ circuit to operate (the rear cab bulkhead open buttons must be used too). I know that the OPO antennas that give the platform interface images for the cab are bolted below the front running plates so I'd assume that CDSE antennas would be similarly located. The CSDE antenna are placed back by the second car. Corresponding aerials placed under platform edge, usually consisting of three blue or yellow thin strips.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Jul 22, 2018 19:47:58 GMT
*CSDE = correct side door enable Thank you Chris.
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Post by firestorm on Jul 24, 2018 20:33:41 GMT
I'm guessing that there must have been some problem with the CSDE system and the driver had to override it (thus explaining the doors not opening in the first/last carriages and the delay), but the train looked to be berthed correctly from where I was standing. Is there a particularly tight stopping point at Sloane Square or is it possible that the system just malfunctioned? I'm also not sure why the driver got out of the cab The train may simply have overrun the stopping mark by a few inches? If the train has gone out of the braking arc then the rear doors will also remain closed. The cab door on the platform side must be opened for the ‘emergency open’ circuit to operate (the rear cab bulkhead open buttons must be used too). I know that the OPO antennas that give the platform interface images for the cab are bolted below the front running plates so I'd assume that CDSE antennas would be similarly located. The CSDE antenna are placed back by the second car. Corresponding aerials placed under platform edge, usually consisting of three blue or yellow thin strips. Just to add a little to that when the emergency open circuit is operated, as DStock7080 says the rear bulkhead open buttons must be used whilst the cab door on the same side must also be open (The saloon doors cannot be opened using the door open panels in the front in this situation) . The circuit has been designed this way so act of opening the doors on the correct side must be "thought about" e.g. foot on the platform, facing the platform doors and opening them. The sets of doors not opening on the first and last carriage is because of a potential overrun or not stopping fully inside a platform. Finally a slight correction, the CSDE antenna's are located on the "D" End of a DM (Driving Motor) car on both sides.
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Post by davethewomble on Jul 25, 2018 8:09:04 GMT
I think the procedure for overriding CSDE* requires the driver to place at least one foot on the platform before/while doing so - this is to make it very difficult (maybe impossible?) to open the doors on the non-platform side. Which makes me wonder what happens if such an error occurs at, say, Bayswater, where IIRC half of the leading carriage is in the tunnel?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 25, 2018 9:14:25 GMT
Which makes me wonder what happens if such an error occurs at, say, Bayswater, where IIRC half of the leading carriage is in the tunnel? Several stations, including Bayswater do not have a platform surface immediately under the cab door, so making sure the cab door is open on the platform side is imperative in the ‘emergency open’ procedure. Although S Stock have more steps to be undertaken before opening doors on the correct side, when an overrun takes place, than previous C or D Stock, mistakes can still and have been made.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 5, 2018 19:23:51 GMT
I think the procedure for overriding CSDE requires the driver to place at least one foot on the platform We no longer train this as too many drivers have fallen out of trains due to no platform being present. Current training practice is open the the cab door and confirm the platform is there (ie, use yer bloomin eyes!). Drivers should also be checking exactly how far they have overrun. I know that the OPO antennas that give the platform interface images for the cab are bolted below the front running plates so I'd assume that CDSE antennas would be similarly located. The OPO antenna's are indeed on the front of the train but the CSDE ones aren't. The CSDE antenna's are actually located at the rear end of the leading car.
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