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Post by ducatisti on Jul 24, 2018 8:41:31 GMT
Finsbury Park Tube was restricted access this morning due to over-crowding. Advice on the tannoy was to carry on to Highbury & Islington and get on the vic there. This seems counter-intuitive - won't the trains just be full at Finsbury Park and then arrive at H&I full?
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Post by superteacher on Jul 24, 2018 8:51:06 GMT
Finsbury Park Tube was restricted access this morning due to over-crowding. Advice on the tannoy was to carry on to Highbury & Islington and get on the vic there. This seems counter-intuitive - won't the trains just be full at Finsbury Park and then arrive at H&I full? Just a case of dispersal I think.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 24, 2018 8:51:07 GMT
When the Central Line was closed after the Chancery Lane derailment in 2003 we had loads of passengers turn up at Stratford saying that the staff at Liverpool Street had told them that trains would be running from Stratford. True we had trains but not Central Line trains.
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Post by ducatisti on Jul 24, 2018 11:57:19 GMT
"dispersal" as in "try to get rid of this bloc of people so we can fix the problem"? or as in "by the time they get to H&I they will have spread out enough to be able to board trains"
I took the Moorgate/Northern line alternative which cost me about 20 mins, so I'm curious to know if I'd been better staying and waiting
It's interesting, I last worked in Vauxhall back in the early 90s, and the vic always seemed much emptier than the northern. Then it got fuller and fuller. Now I'm back that way it's back to acceptable again, but because it shifts so many people so fast. You only really notice when it trips up a bit
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Post by goldenarrow on Jul 24, 2018 16:01:17 GMT
The art/science of people movement on the Underground is a marvel in itself.
Indulge this geek for a paragraph or two or three...
The volume of passengers through locations such as Finsbury Park or Highbury & Islington mean that during the height of the peaks, potential for an erratic build up of crowds due to even minuscule service deviation rests on a knife edge.
When disruption occurs the first priority is to stop the flow of passengers making their way down to the platforms for trains that are most likely full or not likely to be moving. On the Victoria line this is especially true with such narrow platforms it doesn’t take much time for a safety critical situation to develop.
Once the crowd flow has been stabilised by means ranging from non-stopping trains to closing entrances (sometimes referred to as manning the gates), the next step from my experience as a CSA was giving options, tons of them. From my experience, most passengers will remain content if they are given alternatives at the right time and place. Zone 1 London is mostly spoilt for choice, the dense network offers great flexibility (I know it has its limitations) for most journeys so getting that information beamed out to affected passengers is key to minimising the impact of service disruption.
Service information now has an unprecedented reach thanks to open source data and social media, I have noticed several lifts in City offices even have tube status boards. This all helps to defer crowds from the epicentre mitigating or at least delaying the impacts of a critical mass.
Dispersing crowds as you say is also vital as no single route could take on the full flow of another route. That’s why it’s crucial that the crowd is broken up, some passengers will just wait out the storm whilst others will have the impulse to keep moving by whatever mode or convoluted route. Both these methods can fail or succeed depending on the form the disruption takes. But it’s that dark matter of uncertainty that plays into the phycology of passengers as suddenly no one clear solution is apparent and that in itself helps to break up crowds.
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Post by snoggle on Jul 25, 2018 0:12:27 GMT
That’s why it’s crucial that the crowd is broken up, some passengers will just wait out the storm whilst others will have the impulse to keep moving by whatever mode or convoluted route. Both these methods can fail or succeed depending on the form the disruption takes. But it’s that dark matter of uncertainty that plays into the psychology of passengers as suddenly no one clear solution is apparent and that in itself helps to break up crowds. Nice explanation. I always took the view that it was much better to keep moving when faced with disruption than try to sit it out on an Underground platform. The only exception is if I could get a real explanation from platform staff / the driver as to the problem. Some you know will be fixed in 5 mins but many others won't be. I am fortunate to have very good network knowledge so I can get myself just about anywhere with relative ease although journey times can be long. Keeping moving gives you a sense of control whereas sitting and waiting doesn't. Being in a crowd of people who also don't feel in control is not good either. As you say you can't *know* which decision is right when you take it. You just hope you've done the right thing. Sometimes my decision was completely wrong because the delayed line sprang back into service the second the doors closed as I headed off on another line. However, overall, I reckon I "won" more times than I lost when checking to see how long incidents lasted. The Vic Line, though, does seem to be having another one of its "phases" with serious incidents almost every day. I missed the twitter session today with the Line Manager. Wonder what was said?
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Post by goldenarrow on Jul 25, 2018 5:47:01 GMT
snoggle , Being this time of year, there were lots tweets about air con and the limitations of this. Noise wasn’t far behind as well as questions about platform edge doors. Station expansion also made a fair chunk of questions, Brixton understandably was most talked about.
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Post by ducatisti on Jul 25, 2018 8:28:08 GMT
Thanks Golden Arrow - that was most informative. It really is noticeable how fast the vic line can shift passengers - mainly when it slightly stumbles as you can see how fast they build up when not being shipped out. Interesting what you say about narrow platforms, I have noticed that at Vauxhall there is a lot of holding passengers at the top of the escalators - presumably for this reason.
I'm sure there are valid reasons why there can't be done, but two things that strike me are (1) maps at junctions are a good idea, but at peak times they give a hook for the unsure to hang on to at the point where you don't want them to. (2) if it were possible to "flare" the entrances I think you'd again improve flow
Also, as has been said, no way of knowing if you'd "win" by taking the diversion or not at the time
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Post by snoggle on Jul 25, 2018 19:20:35 GMT
snoggle , Being this time of year, there were lots tweets about air con and the limitations of this. Noise wasn’t far behind as well as questions about platform edge doors. Station expansion also made a fair chunk of questions, Brixton understandably was most talked about. Ta. I did take a look. I was suprised at the questions to be honest. Obviously the tube is hot in this weather but people have short memories. The Vic Line is noticeably cooler in normal circumstances than it used to be. It's one of those unstated / under appreciated benefits from the line upgrade. It was somewhat concerning that there was relatively little clarity about when Victoria will complete. I know the lifts are problematic but they must surely have a clue when the whole thing is going to open. There isn't much of "Summer" left - 5 weeks in meteorological terms. Ditto that little was said about Finsbury Park and T Hale rebuilds - I think we do actually deserve a formal update on these schemes especially F Park. Bemused that people want the line extended - it's full now. If people want more tubes in South London then we need entirely new lines.
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Post by Tomcakes on Jul 28, 2018 16:03:40 GMT
The Victoria is noticeable when it falls over, particularly on the Piccadilly. Attempting to board at e.g. Holloway when there are problems on the Victoria can be nigh on impossible - it would be helpful if in these circumstances a train could occasionally skip FPK.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2018 2:47:37 GMT
I had the misfortune of being stuck at Royal oak on the evening of July 5th recently. I was just about to make my way to Euston Sq to join a northbound pendo from Euston only to be informed that a major track and signalling fault had stopped ALL H&C. Circle, and District lines at approx. 18.40pm. at Edgware road and east bound services were being held indefinitely, fortunately at platforms. As I began to panic I jumped on a westbound H&C service from royal oak to Hammersmith whereupon the station was officially closed for the rest of the evening. Fortunately I was able to join the picc line at Hammersmith to green park and switch to the Victoria to Euston only to find that my Euston service had been cancelled with all passengers doubling up on the next service. Absolute chaos .... You Londoners must get pretty sick when things go pear shaped. And so often!
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Post by goldenarrow on Aug 21, 2018 6:47:28 GMT
Absolute chaos .... You Londoners must get pretty sick when things go pear shaped. And so often! It’s just one of the consequences of living in one of the most lop sidedly populous parts of UK, more people to move, more scope for disruption when it occurs. It’s not just London and the South East, the whole country feels a lot busier now, the recent timetable changes showed just how much the North and it’s cities, long overlooked by central government relies and indeed demands decent reliable transport if it is to stand a chance of redressing the tadpole economics of this country. Moving back to the Victoria line, it’s vision and innovation was supposed to eliminate congestion across the axis of London it crossed but as time has shown, London has an almost insatiable capacity to generate its own traffic a trait set to come continue when Crossrail/Elizabeth line opens.
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