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Post by spsmiler on Jan 16, 2019 23:32:27 GMT
(As this is about the Central Line I've put it in that section, I suppose it would also fit in the rant area!)
I arrived on the eastbound Central Line platform at Holborn yesterday at about 18:04. Of course it was busy, this was to be expected at that time of day.
However it was several minutes before the first train arrived, by when the platform had become somewhat crowded. This train was an Epping. It was followed by another Epping, then a Debden - all about 2 minutes apart. By now there were many passengers on the platform who were not boarding trains because they wanted a service that travelled via Wanstead. This included me!
That was the fourth train... to be exact, it was a Woodford via Hainault, which would have been ideal for passengers who wanted a through train to stations Hainault - Woodford (and who do not like changing at Woodford)... except that it was so crowded that few people could board it! The next train was a Hainault via Newbury Park, which I managed to squeeze aboard. After that was a Leytonstone, which seemed somewhat odd for the rush hour - unless the idea was to use it to boost the service in the central core of this line. Maybe this train had been a Newbury Park but had its journey shortened.
I suppose that 5 trains in a little over 10 minutes is not that bad. But it would have been nice if the train destinations had alternated more, rather than a string of trains along the same branch then nothing for a while.
What might work well on the Central Line is if there are a few trains - no more than three or four - spread out during the busy period that run empty as far as Holborn (or maybe Chancery Lane). Their purpose would be to reduce potentially severe overcrowding at stations Chancery Lane and eastwards, giving these passengers a fairer chance to find space on a train.
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hobbayne
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Post by hobbayne on Jan 16, 2019 23:52:54 GMT
We had a couple go OOS (Out of Service) yesterday about that time. One of them was a Hainault I believe.
Train 107 was running late and turned short at Lys @ about 18.35. That was a Newbury Pk train.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jan 17, 2019 10:22:43 GMT
I'm off today but I'll have a look on Trackernet Replayer tomorrow when I get into work and see what was going on.
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Post by notverydeep on Jan 17, 2019 14:08:09 GMT
I'm off today but I'll have a look on Trackernet Replayer tomorrow when I get into work and see what was going on. The timetable order from WTT69 shows train 124 Epping , 107 Newbury Park, 2 Epping, 113 Woodford via Hainault, 112 Debden and then 7 Hainault via Newbury Park - the timetable plan is to alternate between the branches. What appears to have occurred is that they are slightly late (as 124 should pass Holborn at 18:00 1/2) and out of order with train 107 four trains behind its timetable slot (hence reversing short at Leytonstone). This alone would have given two Epping trains in a row, but trains 113 and 112 were also out of order and instead ran 112 then 113 which will have led to the third consecutive Epping Branch train. No consolation but there are then a pair of Hainault branch trains 117 and 7... |
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 18, 2019 0:20:11 GMT
Thanks.
So, I had assumed correctly that some trains were late / had missed their timetabled slots etc. I probably would have caught the Newbury Park train, had it run to time.
As an aside; in the winter passengers wanting stations beyond here tend to wait at Gants Hill, as being underground its relatively warm and of course dry. In warm sunny weather they tend to wait at Newbury Park.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jan 22, 2019 21:16:07 GMT
I guess something similar was happening this evening. We arrived at Oxford Circus at about 18:20 and the sequence showing in the ticket hall was Debden, Epping, Epping, Hainault via Woodford. The last train was 6 minutes away, which was longer than it took us to get to the platform so we boarded a Loughton train which was followed by an Epping then a Woodford via Hainault. A good service was advertised and to be fair the platforms weren't the busiest I've ever seen them at either Oxo or Bank.
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Post by scheduler on Jan 31, 2019 20:27:57 GMT
I'm off today but I'll have a look on Trackernet Replayer tomorrow when I get into work and see what was going on. The timetable order from WTT69 shows train 124 Epping , 107 Newbury Park, 2 Epping, 113 Woodford via Hainault, 112 Debden and then 7 Hainault via Newbury Park - the timetable plan is to alternate between the branches. What appears to have occurred is that they are slightly late (as 124 should pass Holborn at 18:00 1/2) and out of order with train 107 four trains behind its timetable slot (hence reversing short at Leytonstone). This alone would have given two Epping trains in a row, but trains 113 and 112 were also out of order and instead ran 112 then 113 which will have led to the third consecutive Epping Branch train. No consolation but there are then a pair of Hainault branch trains 117 and 7... Aren't the line controllers supposed to stop that happening and start doing some train re-forms, to artificially re-create the correct order. This is by no means a one-off, I have seen this sort of thing happening relatively often recently. Sometimes in my favour, with 3 or 4 trains for the loop branch together and sometimes against me with 3 or 4 Epping branch trains together. If the timetable says alternate, and you end up with one pair followed by another pair, OK. But 3 in a row for 1 branch, is sure to spell potential overcrowding problems through the core in the peak. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Jan 31, 2019 21:24:36 GMT
The timetable order from WTT69 shows train 124 Epping , 107 Newbury Park, 2 Epping, 113 Woodford via Hainault, 112 Debden and then 7 Hainault via Newbury Park - the timetable plan is to alternate between the branches. What appears to have occurred is that they are slightly late (as 124 should pass Holborn at 18:00 1/2) and out of order with train 107 four trains behind its timetable slot (hence reversing short at Leytonstone). This alone would have given two Epping trains in a row, but trains 113 and 112 were also out of order and instead ran 112 then 113 which will have led to the third consecutive Epping Branch train. No consolation but there are then a pair of Hainault branch trains 117 and 7... Aren't the line controllers supposed to stop that happening and start doing some train re-forms, to artificially re-create the correct order. This is by no means a one-off, I have seen this sort of thing happening relatively often recently. Sometimes in my favour, with 3 or 4 trains for the loop branch together and sometimes against me with 3 or 4 Epping branch trains together. If the timetable says alternate, and you end up with one pair followed by another pair, OK. But 3 in a row for 1 branch, is sure to spell potential overcrowding problems through the core in the peak. Oh, if only it was that simple. The headline reason is politics. Beyond that there are countless reasons why things happen. Simply renumbering or diverting a train can cause any number of problems. It's also entirely possible that the solitary controller was dealing with something elsewhere on the line. As usual, you're showing a very naïve view of how the operational railway actually works. |
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Post by philthetube on Jan 31, 2019 21:39:41 GMT
To be fair, yes the controllers are supposed to try and do that, however it frequently is not possible, even when they have the time to try.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 31, 2019 23:03:08 GMT
Aren't the line controllers supposed to stop that happening and start doing some train re-forms, to artificially re-create the correct order. Ideally yes, but any such reform could result in stock and/or crew ending up in the wrong place at the end of the shift/day. |
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Post by scheduler on Mar 4, 2019 18:16:08 GMT
Well there'll be multiple trains to one eastern branch destination tonight, as there is a closure of the loop between Leytonstone and Newbury Park. Really helpful that! I suppose since there are references to a police investigation that someone decided to go on the track in front of a train. And I should thus be thankful that I squeezed onto a TfL Rail service at Stratford with next stop Ilford, the first one on the platform when I arrived there, and that there are lots of buses to Gants Hill.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 4, 2019 19:55:35 GMT
Well there'll be multiple trains to one eastern branch destination tonight, as there is a closure of the loop between Leytonstone and Newbury Park. Really helpful that! I suppose since there are references to a police investigation that someone decided to go on the track in front of a train. And I should thus be thankful that I squeezed onto a TfL Rail service at Stratford with next stop Ilford, the first one on the platform when I arrived there, and that there are lots of buses to Gants Hill. I don't think it was a "one under" rather someone went off down one of the tunnels at Gants Hill and there's not a lot LUL can do once the BTP tell them to shut everything down.
Initially it was suspended Leytonstone to Newbury Park both roads but later it was all the way to Hainault which probably means they had to discharge traction current at Newbury Park.
The obvious problem is that trains coming via Woodford can only access two platforms at Hainault whereas via Newbury Park there are three platforms available. The service to Hainault is reduced and the extra trains have to go up the Epping branch. I was on a HvNP but got diverted to Debden tonight.
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Post by superteacher on Mar 4, 2019 20:34:47 GMT
Well there'll be multiple trains to one eastern branch destination tonight, as there is a closure of the loop between Leytonstone and Newbury Park. Really helpful that! I suppose since there are references to a police investigation that someone decided to go on the track in front of a train. And I should thus be thankful that I squeezed onto a TfL Rail service at Stratford with next stop Ilford, the first one on the platform when I arrived there, and that there are lots of buses to Gants Hill. I don't think it was a "one under" rather someone went off down one of the tunnels at Gants Hill and there's not a lot LUL can do once the BTP tell them to shut everything down.
Initially it was suspended Leytonstone to Newbury Park both roads but later it was all the way to Hainault which probably means they had to discharge traction current at Newbury Park.
The obvious problem is that trains coming via Woodford can only access two platforms at Hainault whereas via Newbury Park there are three platforms available. The service to Hainault is reduced and the extra trains have to go up the Epping branch. I was on a HvNP but got diverted to Debden tonight.
What do they do with Woodford via Hainaults in cases like this? |
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Post by simran1966 on Mar 5, 2019 13:57:44 GMT
It must have been around the time that the line opened again that I got on at Stratford. The platform indicator was showing Loughton but the driver was assuring everyone that the destination was Hainault. When we got to Leytonstone, the driver said she'd been told at Liverpool Street that the destination had changed (presumably from Loughton to Hainault) but that she had the road towards Epping. She apologised and let everyone know that she was waiting to clarify before coming back to confirm it really was a Hainault train (cue wailing and gnashing of teeth by some passengers).
I thought the driver handled the situation perfectly but I couldn't understand why she'd have been told one thing (that turned out to be correct) whilst the platform indicators and signals had other ideas. I assumed (naively, probably!) that when things change, someone makes a decision that triggers all the other things to change too. How would this kind of inconsistency come about?
Simon.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 5, 2019 15:16:46 GMT
I don't think it was a "one under" rather someone went off down one of the tunnels at Gants Hill and there's not a lot LUL can do once the BTP tell them to shut everything down.
Initially it was suspended Leytonstone to Newbury Park both roads but later it was all the way to Hainault which probably means they had to discharge traction current at Newbury Park.
The obvious problem is that trains coming via Woodford can only access two platforms at Hainault whereas via Newbury Park there are three platforms available. The service to Hainault is reduced and the extra trains have to go up the Epping branch. I was on a HvNP but got diverted to Debden tonight.
What do they do with Woodford via Hainaults in cases like this? Some became Hainault via Woodfords, at least one went to Epping and another went out of service at South Woodford then into Woodford sidings. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 5, 2019 15:21:06 GMT
It must have been around the time that the line opened again that I got on at Stratford. The platform indicator was showing Loughton but the driver was assuring everyone that the destination was Hainault. When we got to Leytonstone, the driver said she'd been told at Liverpool Street that the destination had changed (presumably from Loughton to Hainault) but that she had the road towards Epping. She apologised and let everyone know that she was waiting to clarify before coming back to confirm it really was a Hainault train (cue wailing and gnashing of teeth by some passengers). I thought the driver handled the situation perfectly but I couldn't understand why she'd have been told one thing (that turned out to be correct) whilst the platform indicators and signals had other ideas. I assumed (naively, probably!) that when things change, someone makes a decision that triggers all the other things to change too. How would this kind of inconsistency come about? Simon. A failure of communication within the Wood Lane control room, I've had it a couple of times in the past, both times at Leytonstone. |
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Post by banana99 on Mar 5, 2019 22:09:04 GMT
Aren't the line controllers supposed to stop that happening and start doing some train re-forms, to artificially re-create the correct order. Ideally yes, but any such reform could result in stock and/or crew ending up in the wrong place at the end of the shift/day. Well we can't have that can we?  That would really screw-up getting customers home.  |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 5, 2019 22:37:36 GMT
If a t/op ends up at a different location to where they started they have to get back there, and that takes time. Time they get paid overtime for (I believe) which impacts on the money available for maintenance and improvements, etc. There is also a minimum time between shifts so if they book off late there is a chance it could mean they aren't available for their next shift - which might impact getting customers to/from home tomorrow.
As for stock, that being in the wrong place can impact maintenance and preparation - e.g. trains can't have exams done at (most?) outstabling locations, so you don't want a unit stabling there two days in a row if you can avoid it.
It's better to confine the disruption to a single day if possible
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