Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Sept 26, 2019 11:45:46 GMT
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Post by revupminster on Sept 26, 2019 14:42:00 GMT
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Post by snoggle on Sept 28, 2019 15:28:31 GMT
I was aware of the Oyster vs Contactless issue (i.e. having to likely go contactless only) a while ago. It is tactically interesting that this decision, presumably with City Hall's endorsement, has emerged now - well before the annual blood letting / political row over fare increases etc. I assume City Hall have decided to get the political fall out sorted sooner rather than later because I can imagine there will be quite a row about a breach of a long standing Mayoral commitment that Oyster and Contactless would be "equal" and would apply throughout Crossrail. I must confess that the more I think about the lack of Oyster, west of West Drayton, the more bizarre I find it. I know there are genuine technical constraints here and an obvious desire to push contactless but having no Oyster (incl railcard discounts) facilities is surely going to cause issues. We also have the lack of an ITSO based PAYG scheme on GWR and even an apparent reluctance to commit to the existing GWR Smart scheme working on Crossrail. I fear we will see some monumental confusion as to what tickets work where post Jan 2020 that will cause issues for revenue protection staff / penalty fares. I assume stations will have to have Oyster style validators or readers on the gates but they will only recognise contactless (and possibly GWR) cards but not Oyster. Quite how the public are going to fathom all this out is a bit beyond me. Brookmans Park is the first "contactless only" station and is only designated by a small symbol on the Rail and Tube Map that shows zones plus how far Oyster stretches. |
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Post by croxleyn on Sept 29, 2019 9:18:22 GMT
I presume that the contactless only system could have a database of specific cards being railcard-linked - as far as the user is concerned, that would be no different to having railcard- and also non-discount- oyster (visitor) cards as I have. Whether the method of fare calculation could work efficiently enough without the local (card chip) knowledge of the Oyster discount I couldn't begin to guess. But there must be a lot of children without contactless...
Also ticketing staff would need to be trained in the management of these cards, which of course are regularly renewed...
Could the Oyster system also work like this? I wonder whether TFL benefit in cash-flow terms as Oyster is always topped up before use, with a single bank charge (they've had £9 on my visitor card for ages), whereas contactless will presumably incur daily charges. |
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Chris M
Global Moderator
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Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,388
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Post by Chris M on Sept 29, 2019 12:31:24 GMT
I think the plan is (was?) to convert the Oyster system to a dumbcard where the card is just a unique identifier for the record in a back-office database that holds all the information about balance, journeys, discounts, etc. There is no reason, in principle, why a contactless card could be used as an identifier (unless there is issue with banking regulations). From a technology and front-of-house systems point of view there would need to be an easy way to easily transfer the record from one card to another, and the capacity to do this. Assuming a person holds both old and new cards in their hand, then technologically it would be easy to do over the phone or in person at a station. It becomes trickier when cards have been lost or stolen, but this is probably not insurmountable if there is a link between an account and person whose identify can be verified.
In terms of capacity, Google tells me that in March last year there were 6.4 million unregistered oyster cards in use and that 70% of oyster cards are not registered. That translates to about 9.1 million Oyster cards in use. In June 2018 approximately 51% of journeys not using paper tickets used Oyster, so let's say that circa 18 million different cards were used. I haven't been able to find out how long contactless bank cards are valid for on average, so let's say it's three years (as that's how long all mine have been valid for). 3 years is 36 months, and if the expiry dates are evenly distributed that means about 500,000 cards will need renewing each month. Expiry is always the end of the month so renewal will be significantly unevenly distributed towards the last week of each month. That's a lot for a system to handle.
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Post by goldenarrow on Sept 30, 2019 19:41:53 GMT
The TfL Rail West timetable is up on the TfL website showing the barren wilderness beyond West Drayton (otherwise known as Central Berkshire) and a keyless greyed section to T5. content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-rail-paddington-heathrow-reading-timetable-15-dec-2019-to-16-may-2020.pdfApparently they’ve maxed out the number of fare charts that the Oyster card can handle. 15 fare charts must have seemed like ample room when the card was first rolled out. With the addition of National Rail and the plethora of iterations across the Overground, TfL Rail and peripheral stations that now dot the edge of the map, the card currently has 14 fare charts. I dare say this has the makings of a storm over fares with a possible scenario where like Epsom, paper tickets end up being cheaper than the contactless option especially when considering the use of railcards. Presumably the agreement between TOC’s also voids the mayors fares freeze instead being under the jurisdiction of the DfT at the mercy of inflation. The anarchist in me likes Crossrail even more because it’s become a political bug bear... |
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londoner
thinking on '73 stock
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Post by londoner on Oct 1, 2019 2:16:26 GMT
Is the limit with Oyster card zones something to do with the chip inside the Oyster cards or something to do with the server side software?
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Post by zbang on Oct 1, 2019 3:33:20 GMT
I think the plan is (was?) to convert the Oyster system to a dumbcard where the card is just a unique identifier for the record in a back-office database that holds all the information about balance, journeys, discounts, etc. There is no reason, in principle, why a contactless card could be used as an identifier (unless there is issue with banking regulations). When the Oyster was introduced costs and capabilities of datacom and back-office processing would have forced some of the smarts into the card (gates wouldn't be able to query the central database quickly enough). With much better comms, faster databases, better distributed computing, etc, there isn't as much need to have an actual "smart" card so a simple token would suffice (and even now settlement happens once a day, but that seems to be often enough).
I haven't been able to find out how long contactless bank cards are valid for on average, so let's say it's three years (as that's how long all mine have been valid for). 3 years is 36 months, and if the expiry dates are evenly distributed that means about 500,000 cards will need renewing each month. I'm not sure this is a real problem, or at least an unsolved one. Most people will do it online when they jigger all of the other accounts that card is attached to and it isn't that much of a system load (avg less than 12/minute although the peak is likely to be over 100/min). BTW, it appears that Oyster and Clipper* use the same card technology- NXP Semiconductors MIFARE chips *San Francisco MTC inter-agency transit card
Now I'm probably going to spend the rest of my evening reading about this. Thanks, I think  . |
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Post by 1018509 on Oct 10, 2019 21:56:08 GMT
Will staff passes be valid on Crossrail when TfL takes over?
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Post by Tubeboy on Oct 12, 2019 3:23:38 GMT
Will staff passes be valid on Crossrail when TfL takes over? Yes, was confirmed in the latest Staff ticketing bulletin. |
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Post by Chris L on Oct 13, 2019 17:57:28 GMT
Will staff passes be valid on Crossrail when TfL takes over? Yes, was confirmed in the latest Staff ticketing bulletin. but not on fast trains |
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Post by cudsn15 on Oct 13, 2019 19:20:47 GMT
how will that be enforced?
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Post by superteacher on Oct 13, 2019 20:30:26 GMT
how will that be enforced? Revenue protection staff I presume, although there is nothing to physically prevent it. |
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Post by Chris L on Oct 13, 2019 20:48:26 GMT
how will that be enforced? Revenue protection staff I presume, although there is nothing to physically prevent it. and ticket gates at Paddington on some platforms |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 14, 2019 0:15:56 GMT
Revenue protection staff I presume, although there is nothing to physically prevent it. and ticket gates at Paddington on some platforms The Staff Bulletin indicated that barriers beyond West Drayton would not be operated by Staff/Retired Passes: “ |
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282
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Post by Ben on Oct 14, 2019 0:51:30 GMT
Special Fares Apply...
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Post by Chris L on Oct 14, 2019 1:47:59 GMT
and ticket gates at Paddington on some platforms The Staff Bulletin indicated that barriers beyond West Drayton would not be operated by Staff/Retired Passes: “ My response was about enforcement of staff passes not being valid on fast trains to/from Reading. |
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Post by goldenarrow on Nov 24, 2019 22:56:24 GMT
Soft start to services to Reading from Monday 25th November with six digrams coming under TfL Rail
Inbound services:
9P17 Reading (0732) to Paddington
9P28 Reading (0948) to Paddington
9P68 Maidenhead (1742) to Paddington
Outbound services:
9R20 Paddington (0843) to Reading
9N92 Paddington (1656) to Maidenhead
9R63 Paddington (1842) to Reading
UPDATE - The tweet below shows 345011 with the first service of the day
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Post by Deep Level on Nov 27, 2019 7:43:33 GMT
Will 9 car trains run this route from 15th? Surely all stations except the bay at H&H can take them?
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Post by goldenarrow on Nov 27, 2019 12:54:42 GMT
Deep Level , Whilst there are already 9 car trains running on H&H-PAD workings late weekdays and on Sundays, there are still a litany of bugs to be sorted out before they are let loose on Berks services. We've got a good few months ahead of Reduced Length Unit operation out to Reading.
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Post by Deep Level on Nov 27, 2019 19:45:07 GMT
How many units have now been converted to 7 car to make this possible? Seems to be a lot on the Shenfield line right now.
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Post by commuter on Nov 30, 2019 8:41:22 GMT
The Staff Bulletin indicated that barriers beyond West Drayton would not be operated by Staff/Retired Passes: “ My response was about enforcement of staff passes not being valid on fast trains to/from Reading. It is no different to the countless other locations where TfL staffpass holders can get through the barrier and access services where it is not valid; it is already the case at the other end of the Crossrail line from Shenfield and Romford, and on the western section at Ealing Bwy. Rather than say not valid on fast trains, it is just the G.W.R trains that passes are not valid on. |
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Post by kesmet on Dec 19, 2019 0:54:08 GMT
I know that, currently, Gold Card benefits are not available with contactless bank cards, only with Oyster. With the extension of TfL Rail to Reading and the lack of Oyster ticketing, does this become a problem that TfL are going to need to solve more quickly?
Indeed, surely there has been at least the outline of a plan of how to deal with railcards of all types and non-Oyster travel for Crossrail? We should, after all, have been having the benefits of Crossrail for quite some time now...
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Post by goldenarrow on Jan 15, 2020 18:15:09 GMT
How many units have now been converted to 7 car to make this possible? Seems to be a lot on the Shenfield line right now. Sorry for the delay in replying to this, I wanted to make sure I had some reliable info to go on. Consensus seems to hover at 12-15 units have been shortened for the expansion of TfL Rail West adding to the 14 RLU's originally entered service TfL Rail East. |
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Post by Deep Level on Jan 15, 2020 20:47:19 GMT
How many units have now been converted to 7 car to make this possible? Seems to be a lot on the Shenfield line right now. Sorry for the delay in replying to this, I wanted to make sure I had some reliable info to go on. Consensus seems to hover at 12-15 units have been shortened for the expansion of TfL Rail West adding to the 14 RLU's originally entered service TfL Rail East. Thanks goldenarrowCan we expect a full conversion to CL345s in the east any time soon? I notice that there's no Reading maps on the trains so I'm assuming the fleets are separate. |
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Post by goldenarrow on Jan 15, 2020 22:09:57 GMT
Deep Level , I expect some shuffling up of the fleet in the run up to the May timetable change but don't know for sure if that means 345's all the way for XR East. XR West are desperate to get rid off their 360's given the condition they are in and given the intensive period of testing that is accommodated for six days of every week till May, I don't think it unreasonable to suggest that XR West be capable of running all their services with nine car trains. That may in turn facilitate wholesale operation of 345's XR East, but its early days.
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Post by Deep Level on Jan 15, 2020 22:16:57 GMT
Deep Level , I expect some shuffling up of the fleet in the run up to the May timetable change but don't know for sure if that means 345's all the way for XR East. XR West are desperate to get rid off their 360's given the condition they are in and given the intensive period of testing that is accommodated for six days of every week till May, I don't think it unreasonable to suggest that XR West be capable of running all their services with nine car trains. That may in turn facilitate wholesale operation of 345's XR East, but its early days. What's holding back the 9 car trains from running to Reading anyway? |
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Post by goldenarrow on Jan 15, 2020 22:33:56 GMT
Deep Level , I expect some shuffling up of the fleet in the run up to the May timetable change but don't know for sure if that means 345's all the way for XR East. XR West are desperate to get rid off their 360's given the condition they are in and given the intensive period of testing that is accommodated for six days of every week till May, I don't think it unreasonable to suggest that XR West be capable of running all their services with nine car trains. That may in turn facilitate wholesale operation of 345's XR East, but its early days. What's holding back the 9 car trains from running to Reading anyway? The same bad penny that has come to define the introduction of these units. Software for nine car units wasn't in a condition to be signed off on in time for the DEC timetable change. |
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282
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Post by Ben on Jan 16, 2020 20:46:40 GMT
What platform extensions are still outstanding, or is that now complete on the west side?
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Post by goldenarrow on Jan 16, 2020 21:12:53 GMT
What platform extensions are still outstanding, or is that now complete on the west side? All done out west. Platform based PTI equipment at all locations concerned had been fully tested and commissioned by Nov. |
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