Bendybus goes on fire...again.

[Dave A]

A good thing about them is that they seem to have been put along routes which stop near a lot of schools, for example the Route 29 (Wood Green - Trafalgar Square). Putting bendy buses on this route means the kids get on faster, there is lots of space, and the driver can keep an eye on them. This is also good for revenue as its main users don't pay, but because of the above, a better service is in operation for those who do.

The same goes for routes along Oxford Street. With buses always packed no matter what day of the week it is, surely it makes more sense to have as many possible entry and exit points, more space and the quicker exits, that these buses offer!?

The downside of course is the revenue. TfL must be losing quite a bit thanks to fare dodging scum, whose lives are made easier by these buses. That said though, using Oxford Street as an example, do you really imagine that many people who visit there intentionally fare dodge? Its more likely to be down to tourists not understanding the system more than anything.

My opinion is that on some routes, such as the school and busy shopping routes, seems to be doing more good than harm, at the moment anyway, but its when the put them on routes that go through crime ridden estates it may be time to worry...

David

[Chris M]

The really simple way to severely cut back on fare dodging, disruptive passengers and overloading, while still having multiple entrances is to employ a second person on each bus. This person would have the responsibility and authority to check tickets/Oysters, remove disruptive passengers from the bus, avoid overcorwding and (with the driver) ensure the safety of the bus and its passengers. This will also reduce some delays by letting the driver drive rather than having to sort out passengers, etc.

Every job these days must have a snazzy title, and this one is no exception - I suggest this second person be known as a "conductor"...

[Dave A]

Con-duc-tor... What is that... ;D

I agree with Chris, but I can't ever see it happening, as it would mean having to pay more wages, for something a driver is already paid to do...

[Chris M]

Money before service again

[peter]

With two crew they're not that far off running two single deck busses. Not that that's a bad thing.

[pacific]

What exactly is the licenced capacity of a Bendybus? They have about 50 seats and at 18 metres long, I cannot imagine cramming in more than 60 standees, giving a total of 110 passengers. Now, I have also heard the point of a bendybus is having a higher passenger density per square metre, thus allowing a more efficient use of road space. I therefore reckon the licenced capacity of a Bendy is far higher than 110 (so drivers need not worry about overloading!). Going by my practical max capacity of 110 passengers at 18 metres, this compares unfavourably with 90 passengers on a 9 metre double decker or 120 passengers on a 12 metre double decker.

Another issue is the lack of available road space in central London. You see busses blocking back in Oxford Street (since someone mentioned it) all the time. Nothing is more annoying than seeing up to three #73s or #25s close to empty in a short distance!

Yet another personal gripe about these busses is the general comfort level. Bendybusses are the most comfortable busses in London, if they are almost empty! Nothing beats the German chassis and refinement. This defeats the point of the bendybus however, as it is an inefficient use of road space when empty (which most routes are off-peak, minus the #25). When it is actually using road space well, conditions are extremely claustrophobic, and the 2-way flow of passenger traffic hopping on and off adds to the discomfort. At least, double deckers are still bearable when full because of the one-way flow of passengers.

If 12 metre double deckers indeed have the same turning radius as a bendybus (as someone mentioned), bring the tri-axles in! Half the ones in Hong Kong are made in UK afterall!

I may sound like a bendy-bus hater but I have seen them work well in the Chinese City of Xiamen which is full of triple carriageways and low overhead clearance. London is unfortunately different.

aspect said:

When entering oyster cards are supposed to be swiped, but clearly are not, see them all rush to swipe when an inspector is sighted !

Only if you're PAYG-ing...

Whilst there have been some mechanical related fires on normal buses, the number on bendys is disproportionately high when compared to the numbers of various bus types in service. Most fires on double deckers are down to arson.

I'd be generally interested to see the stats on that, especially per passenger-mile.

Another failing, is the driver, who has legal responsibility for ensuring the bus does not exceed it's authorised carrying capacity has no control and no idea how many passengers are actually on their bus.

What, the drivers have no eyes, no CCTV, no mirrors, no tannoy and no ability to stop the bus until people get off? If so, that sounds like a a fit-out error on TfL's part...

Essentially most of the public hate them and politicians ignore public opinion at their peril !

The public do hate them - but the public hate them in the way they hate asylum seekers rather than in the way they hate muggers - i.e. because of gross media distortions and lies, not because there's anything wrong with the buses themselves. Actual bendybus users don't hate them...

[aspect]

Couldn't find any details of the total passenger capacity for a bendy bus, but if you want to be seated on your journey

These details relate to First London Buses

Mercedes Benz Citaro (arctic) 49 seats
TN Class 9.9m Trident (short double deck) 59 seats
TNL Class 10.5m Trident (standard double deck) 65 seats
RML Class Routemaster (open platform double deck) 72 seats

Sadly the driver of a Mercedes Artic can not monitor the behaviour of passengers for the most part he can't see them at all.

My friend reciently had her purse stolen on a bus and upon reporting to the police, their first question "was it on a bendy bus?" apparantly they are a thieves paradise !

From a drivers perspective, yellow box junctions are a nightmare, if the rear of your bendy is in the box, you get a penalty ticket mailed to your employer, for you ! BUT you need such a long gap on the far side of a junction to get into, cars & taxis in the lane next to you simply go across and fill any gap before one of bendybus length appears. This is a big problem for a normal length bus, worse for an Artic driver. Oxford Street has consecutive yellow box junctions less than an Artic length apart so you need to wait for two junctions to clear to move.

On the plus side the cabs of these buses are a touch more luxurious than the standard fayre !

[Colin]

aspect said:

Another failing, is the driver, who has legal responsibility for ensuring the bus does not exceed it's authorised carrying capacity has no control and no idea how many passengers are actually on their bus.

johnb said:

What, the drivers have no eyes, no CCTV, no mirrors, no tannoy and no ability to stop the bus until people get off? If so, that sounds like a a fit-out error on TfL's part...

I have to agree with Aspect here, as a former bus driver myself - with three doors in use, the poor driver hasn't got a chance. CCTV & mirrors may well help him see a problem - and yes, these things are fitted with PA system - but one driver verses 100+ people, most of which are getting a free journey (as agreed previously in this thread)? The driver will be dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn't!

[Tomcakes]

At the end of the day the driver has the keys to the bus - if he switches it off and refuses to move, people will get the message.

PA system on buses?! What happened to the driver shouting? That's what I always see happening for things like places ("Racecourse! Get off here for the racecourse!") or keeping the chavs under control ("GET YER FEET OFF THE SEATS!").

Having more than one door is difficult, Lothian are removing the back doors when they have time. They previously specified double doors but fare evasion was a problem. Also as bus stops and stations are laid out for a conventional layout the second door will often be either a way from the kerb, or right in front of a lamppost / bin.

The other problem with multiple doors is if the driver forgets he's on a dual door bus and opens the front doors out of habit, leaving people standing at the back door. Thankfully though back doors are fitted with emergency buttons.

Finally w.r.t. fire safety, has anybody ever seen a typical bus fire extinguisher? A few months ago after a recurring fuel leak our school bus almost caught fire - pulled up with smoke entering the saloon. The driver went to open the back and shut the engine down / pull the fuel cutoff lead, I broke open the extinguisher cabinet and took it to the back of the bus, the extinguisher itself was minuscule and would probably have had trouble putting out a match. Thankfully in this case it was just some smouldering and after yet another layer of gaffer tape on the fuel tank we were sent on our way...

[slowjoecrow]

Fires seem to be endemic to bendy buses , Portland had some Hungarian buses in the 80's and early 90s but disposed of them after a long string of mechanical problems, including overheating and fires.

[Colin]

tombeevers said:

At the end of the day the driver has the keys to the bus - if he switches it off and refuses to move, people will get the message.

I can assure you that having the keys means nothing - I have been in a situation where I was overloaded (a tube strike day of all things ;D) - I asked, then instructed people to leave the vehicle. They refused. I then switched off the engine and called the old bill. We finally got underway some 30 minutes later after the police had to physically remove people from my vehicle.

Yes that was an extreme situation (not helped with buses & taxis being the only way to get around) - but bus passengers can be that resilient - even more so I suspect, if they're not paying. If I were still a bus driver today, you couldn't pay me enough to drive a bendy.

tombeevers said:

PA system on buses?! What happened to the driver shouting?

If you can shout louder than 100+ people crammed into an 18 metre long bus, good luck to ya!

tombeevers said:

Finally w.r.t. fire safety, has anybody ever seen a typical bus fire extinguisher? A few months ago after a recurring fuel leak our school bus almost caught fire - pulled up with smoke entering the saloon. The driver went to open the back and shut the engine down / pull the fuel cutoff lead, I broke open the extinguisher cabinet and took it to the back of the bus, the extinguisher itself was minuscule and would probably have had trouble putting out a match. Thankfully in this case it was just some smouldering and after yet another layer of gaffer tape on the fuel tank we were sent on our way...

A fire extinguisher is never designed to put out a fire completely - yes, it's very a poor choice of name - a fire extinguisher is simply a first aid device to buy you time. Leave firefighting to those that know what they're doing...........I know I would!

[Tomcakes]

Hmm - from what I've seen, turning the engine off has the desired effect. With overloading isn't it better to stop it from happening in the first place, by stopping people get on? Although with a bendy that would be difficult, with a conventional bus people could be counted on. You can understand why people might be a bit annoyed - if they've waited ages for a bus and finally got on one and paid, to be told to get off isn't going to be poopular.

I suppose having spent 17 years living in a place where it's unusual to have a bus which is roadworthy, let alone with such added extras, leaves its mark! I've seen drivers address passengers in a full decker by shouting though.

Quite, they are only useful occasionally such as when there is a small fire.

[DavidH]

tombeevers said:

At the end of the day the driver has the keys to the bus - if he switches it off and refuses to move, people will get the message.

PA system on buses?! What happened to the driver shouting? That's what I always see happening for things like places ("Racecourse! Get off here for the racecourse!") or keeping the chavs under control ("GET YER FEET OFF THE SEATS!").

Having more than one door is difficult, Lothian are removing the back doors when they have time. They previously specified double doors but fare evasion was a problem. Also as bus stops and stations are laid out for a conventional layout the second door will often be either a way from the kerb, or right in front of a lamppost / bin.

The other problem with multiple doors is if the driver forgets he's on a dual door bus and opens the front doors out of habit, leaving people standing at the back door. Thankfully though back doors are fitted with emergency buttons.

I'm affraid your view is typical for someone who has never driven a bus in service, especially in London. I personally like two door buses - they speed loading and unloading, and to quote one driver, "You only have to see the tw*ts once!".

When I joined First Northampton, we had a mix of single and two door buses, I never heard of anyone forgetting to open the middle doors. All of the two door buses I have ever seen have had perfectly good mirrors for observing the exit door. The only passenger/ step accident I have ever had was when a drunk OAP fell down the step on a single door double deck Volvo D10M, knocking himself out in the process!

[peter]

colin said:

I can assure you that having the keys means nothing - I have been in a situation where I was overloaded (a tube strike day of all things ;D) - I asked, then instructed people to leave the vehicle. They refused. I then switched off the engine and called the old bill. We finally got underway some 30 minutes later after the police had to physically remove people from my vehicle.

Interesting you should mention this. I try not to use the buses unless I have to but I do recall a similar incident on a routemaster some years ago. The conductor couldn't get some standing passengers off the top deck. 15 min later they gave in and off we went. ....I don't think I've used a London bus since!