We're getting tired of closures

[Deleted]

So it now looks like at least some part of the Jubilee is going to be closed every weekend for the rest of the year; and worse still a bunch of those weekends will see the Met closed as well.

Is this the shape of things to come for ever and ever? I seem to remember in the not too distant past we had a 7 day service on all lines. Yes it was less reliable and a bit shabbier, but it was at least a 7 day service...

[Ben]

Well Tim O'Toole didn't like having weekend closures, but thats what the PPP agreement recommended. A cynic would suggest in a few years time, when the major overhauls have been finished and London have become grudgingly used to them, the question of their temporary need will be forgotten, and they will become the norm.

They should go away eventually, because there is only a finite amount of work that needs them (epic backlog, but still finite).

[Deleted]

Well, using the Met every day I'm now used to closures and when there is a train service it is a right result!!!! The worst one I ever had was the bus from Stonebridge Park to Northwood.......that made the day very long. I've thought to myself many times how LU can actually charge full fares for this, I think to charge 50% instead on days where huge chunks of network aren't working would be quite reasonable.

[Deleted]

The Jubilee line is having a new signalling system. Thus the number of closures at some section of the line is higher than you'd expect.

However once this work is done you should see a more reliable, more frequent service.

It's one of the pains of seeing improvements to the infrastructure.

Also the question isn't limited to LU. Ask anybody who uses the West Coast Mainline the problems they've had over the past few years - but now have the hope of a better train service.

Or when the extra lanes on the M25 were added.

The question being - are there better ways of doing the work?

You could extend engineering hours, but that would mean either later morning trains or earlier late trains. Both wouldn't fit into the 24hour London image.

What about engineering blockades? Shut the line for say a month over the summer?

Or perhaps look at the way the replacement bus services operate - perhaps an express service into Zone 1 rather than the train/bus/train options we have at present?

[uzairjubilee]

I agree with you Paul.

I am getting furious with all this. Every weekend is just out of order

[Deleted]

May 24, 2009 8:39:05 GMT @centralsimon said:

The Jubilee line is having a new signalling system. Thus the number of closures at some section of the line is higher than you'd expect.

The question being - are there better ways of doing the work?

You could extend engineering hours, but that would mean either later morning trains or earlier late trains. Both wouldn't fit into the 24hour London image.

What about engineering blockades? Shut the line for say a month over the summer?

Or perhaps look at the way the replacement bus services operate - perhaps an express service into Zone 1 rather than the train/bus/train options we have at present?

In principle I agree with the above. A block of closure would be much more practical both for engineers and commuters.

But then I look at the logistics. The Jubilee is the major tranporation to Canary Wharf. There is no way the DLR could manage to transport all of those workers to and from Canary Wharf, in fact at peak, the DLR and Jubilee can barely cope with the demand already placed on them. Hence the need for the current upgrades.

Neither waiting until the DLR has it's 3rd car upgrade completed or running extra buses is practical!

So, if we want to have an upgraded core piece of infrastructure, that will support business, residential and leisure usage, we need weekend closures.

Personally, I find it more confusing having part closures that change sections across one weekend, but that is personal.

This is from the perspective of someone who doesn't use the Jubilee on a daily basis, but does live in Docklands. But I'm sure someone who lives at Stanmore will have a different opinion.

[uzairjubilee]

And this is all for ATO right?

I'm always trying to get to Canary Wharf and the easiest way for me is the Jubilee!

[slugabed]

It seems the Jubilee is getting a dose of what we regular Victoria Line users have been experiencing for what seems like years.
From a personal perspective,I'd rather they said "OK,the whole Vic is shut EVERY WEEKEND in its entirety until the job is done"
As it is,it is different each weekend,and this only leads to confusion,and a longer overall disruption.
On a historical perspective,how did the station lengthening on the CLR (surely a much larger job?) affect daily services?
Did they shut down,like they did the C&SLR,or work it round a service?

[metman]

They didn't shut down the C&SLR initially, but after a tunnel collapse they had to. They rebuilt Aldgate East with trains running. The CLR was done at a time when H&S were less important!

[Deleted]

this may be bad but I dread to think how many closures there will be when it comes to re-signalling the northern line

[Deleted]

Hopefully, though maybe I am just kidding myself, Tube Lines will have learnt from their work upgrading The Jub.

Maybe someone can confirm, will they use the same ATO signalling system on The Northern as they have been installing on The Jub?

[Colin]

Installing a new signalling system involves installing new cable - how is it possible to do that in tunnel sections with trains running?

Replacing a small section of track over a weekend is far easier than trying to do half a line in a two month summer shut down. The logistics of work sites, possession & protection arrangements, delivery & storage of materials, sourcing the manpower and accommodating all their transportation, plant & machinery, etc, etc ought to make it an obvious no brainer.

I really love/hate these sort of threads as it is so easy to criticise and suggest that LU are deliberately doing it the hard way - they are in fact achieving so much at the moment it's totally unprecedented.

Perhaps we should try a six month period of absolutely no engineering work or maintenance - let's see how long a full 7 days a week service actually lasts.....

[Phil]

May 24, 2009 22:55:59 GMT Colin said:

Perhaps we should try a six month period of absolutely no engineering work or maintenance - let's see how long a full 7 days a week service actually lasts.....

Ooh Err - you're not suggesting that some parts of the system are so near to life-expiry that they're on the brink of failure and so verging on unsafe (broken rails etc.) are you?? Perish the thought.

[Deleted]

May 24, 2009 8:39:05 GMT @centralsimon said:

Also the question isn't limited to LU. Ask anybody who uses the West Coast Mainline the problems they've had over the past few years - but now have the hope of a better train service.

Would that be the same improvements that were supposedly finished some months ago, after years of weekend shutdowns? These "finished" improvements are still resulting in the WCML being shut most weekends for some sort of upgrade work. This work is expected to go on for a few more years despite Virgin claiming "weekends are back"!

[Tomcakes]

Engineering work has to happen - it's a face of life. I don't like it, but it has to happen.

It's the way it's dealt with that makes the difference.

For example, to get from Barnet to Finchley, I was obliged to use a bus which went round the houses, down back lanes to serve each station. Why not run some buses like that, but others as express services not stopping at intermediate stations - which I'm sure I've heard happen before? The general quality of replacement bus services leaves a fair bit to be desired, in my experience.

I do agree, though, that a reduced fare for the day would give some sort of sweetener on the bitter pill. Especially since those with Oyster can be charge more for the "privilege" of a replacement bus!

The other thing to consider, is that closures are invariably upon weekends - ostensibly since the commuters will then not be disrupted. But this is surely shooting ourselves in the foot.

A commuter is forced to travel by tube - they HAVE to be at work at 9am or whatnot.

A shopper going into town, to the cinema etc isn't so tied - and the appearance of engineering works may make them think "stuff it - I'll take the car / take the bus / not go at all"

[Deleted]

May 25, 2009 11:20:44 GMT Tomcakes said:

For example, to get from Barnet to Finchley, I was obliged to use a bus which went round the houses, down back lanes to serve each station. Why not run some buses like that, but others as express services not stopping at intermediate stations - which I'm sure I've heard happen before? The general quality of replacement bus services leaves a fair bit to be desired, in my experience.

Couldn't agree more! When the DLR is shut, the bus services are poorly labelled to know where they stop, infrequent and uncomfortable.

[norbitonflyer]

Closing the Waterloo & City for five months a couple of years ago seems to have done nothing for its reliability - it still has instant surprise shut-downs annoyingly often. And this on a line which could have engineering work every Sunday with no interruption to the timetable whatsoever!

[happybunny]

The most annoying thing is when they change the works section over the course of the weekend.. The other week I used the LO NLL on Saturday, it was working a fine full supurb service to all destinations... on Sunday I found I had to use it to get somewhere whilst I was already out, I didn't have to check in advance, I thought, as I used it yesterday (Saturday) and it was fine so no engineering work this weekend... WRONG most of the line was shut !

If they are going to do work make it the same for both days , not changing it on the Sunday, that just infuriates folk!

[Ben]

The main issue here is that weekend shutdowns, whilst undesirable, are a temporary thing, to enable the bulk of the work to be down/caught up with. If in 5 years time they are still happening, then they are simply the wrong choice for the city, and someone should be accountable. I have a terrible feeling this will be an example of big brother saying years down the line..."But the tube hasnt had a full service at the weekend for years, to have one now can't be accomodated and is unthinkable!" As long as people remember...

Else the answer is to quad everything and run the new tracks for weekends and nights. Wait, thats not a bad idea.... XD

[happybunny]

Or even make all lines bi-directional, like the c2c, so when engineering shuts one line trains can run on the other both directions.. alright there will be a much lower frequency, i.e. instead of a train every 5 mins each direction will be more like every 15. Not such a problem for outside of town though

[Phil]

May 25, 2009 15:47:13 GMT @happybunny said:

Or even make all lines bi-directional, like the c2c, so when engineering shuts one line trains can run on the other both directions.. alright there will be a much lower frequency, i.e. instead of a train every 5 mins each direction will be more like every 15. Not such a problem for outside of town though

I bet nobody in LU has thought of THAT! Ok so it would need some careful planning (and the problem of overfull trains due to reduced frequency still remains) but at least someone tell us they've at least thought of it!!!

[Ben]

Absolutely HB. Well when resignalling comes about it makes sense to add as much flexibility as is financially allowable, and its not like there isnt an historical precident, or current one, as you point out.

[stanmorek]

May 25, 2009 16:01:26 GMT Phil said:

May 25, 2009 15:47:13 GMT @happybunny said:

Or even make all lines bi-directional, like the c2c, so when engineering shuts one line trains can run on the other both directions.. alright there will be a much lower frequency, i.e. instead of a train every 5 mins each direction will be more like every 15. Not such a problem for outside of town though

I bet nobody in LU has thought of THAT! Ok so it would need some careful planning (and the problem of overfull trains due to reduced frequency still remains) but at least someone tell us they've at least thought of it!!!

Not too long ago a shuttle service was ran on the northbound track between Stanmore and Kingsbury during a few weekends.

[happybunny]

I understand that TECHNICALLY the Jubilee has the ability for this on the extension... although if it would be possible I am not sure? Maybe with some modifications, but I know there were signals facing the wrong way on that area, all coloured light as well not shunt

[Tom]

May 25, 2009 12:11:31 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Closing the Waterloo & City for five months a couple of years ago seems to have done nothing for its reliability - it still has instant surprise shut-downs annoyingly often. And this on a line which could have engineering work every Sunday with no interruption to the timetable whatsoever!

But a lot of the assets that have failed recently weren't upgraded during the closure.

[stanmorek]

May 25, 2009 7:55:59 GMT Phil said:

May 24, 2009 22:55:59 GMT Colin said:

Perhaps we should try a six month period of absolutely no engineering work or maintenance - let's see how long a full 7 days a week service actually lasts.....

Ooh Err - you're not suggesting that some parts of the system are so near to life-expiry that they're on the brink of failure and so verging on unsafe (broken rails etc.) are you?? Perish the thought.

There are a lot of life expired assets but it doesn't make them unsafe. However, they will need more maintenance as time goes by.

[Colin]

I am suggesting precisely what Phil asks, if we were to cave in to the demands of no engineering work at the weekends.

A good example would be the drainage work that has been done over the last year in the Notting Hill Gate to High Street Kensington, Sloane Square to Victoria, Hornchurch and Upminster areas. Without this work being done, the track bed would eventually fill up with water and therefore become unusable. Naturally this has to be done in engineering hours or weekend possessions as it involves removing and replacing ballast under the track.

Then there's the track replacement, changing from Bullhead rails to Flat Bottom rails all over the SSR - if you don't want the S stock to bounce off the track, this needs to be done. And of course you cannot run trains and replace the track at the same time.

You want a reliable and fast service? well you won't get it by using equipment that is now 40+ years old for 20 hours a day. ATO and ATP can give a superior performance when compared to leaving a human in charge of the controls - now as a driver I don't like the idea of ATO, but do you want a superior service or the current offering?

Many of you have pointed out the lack of correct information on the ETA board pages on TfL's website, and that some stations don't have a board showing when the next train is, or even stations that have the boards but that they don't show anything other than the line - other than part of the Jubilee line and the Central line, this all relies on the current 1960's installed signalling and will never improve without all lines being resignalled with modern signalling. As I stated on the previous page, you cannot install or test this with trains running.

As for the suggestions of quadrupling the track or installing bi-directional signalling, I thought you all wanted less engineering not more?!! Confused? I certainly am!! ;D ;D

I'm sure I've said it on this forum before, but I'll say it again anyway: you cannot have your cake and eat it folks

[stanmorek]

May 25, 2009 17:24:44 GMT Colin said:

A good example would be the drainage work that has been done over the last year in the Notting Hill Gate to High Street Kensington, Sloane Square to Victoria, Hornchurch and Upminster areas. Without this work being done, the track bed would eventually fill up with water and therefore become unusable. Naturally this has to be done in engineering hours or weekend possessions as it involves removing and replacing ballast under the track.

I recall that there was a concern that some of the existing six foot drainage was in such a poor state that the possibility of their collpase could cause the track to subside.

As for the suggestions of quadrupling the track or installing bi-directional signalling, I thought you all wanted less engineering not more?!! Confused? I certainly am!! ;D ;D

I think that was a tongue in check remark. Scope for quadruling track would be limited due to the cost to divert line side services, equipment and any structures in the way and probably the land take from third parties. It would be quite costly.

Temporary crossovers were installed in the Hammersmith area on the District/Piccadilly and the fast line were converted for wrong way running for a staged bridge renewal in 1994. I recall seeing the archive documents and the cost of the temporary signalling amounted to a sizable portion of the cost of the whole project.

[Ben]

I'm sure someone mentioned that in Madrid they managed to install and test a new signalling system whilst the trains ran? Can't remember where that was said or if it was indeed Madrid, but it was done, and recently. And someone said it on this very forum. Not sure who though...

The quadding was indeed tongue in cheek, but IMHO bi-di stuff should be combined with whatever resignalling work is carried out.

The OP asked "is this the shape of things to come for ever and ever?".

It shouldn't be for ever; people should rightly remember the fact the tube ran near enough well enough with just normal engineering hours before the PPP. The engineers would love a tube closed for maintenence on the weekends ( , the public dont want this though! However, as time wears on and people become accustomed to weekend closures the risk is run of it seeming 'normal' to have these shutdowns. Certainly the more frequently it happens the more acceptable a practice it becomes. I think this is wrong.

[Colin]

May 25, 2009 18:24:37 GMT Ben said:

I'm sure someone mentioned that in Madrid they managed to install and test a new signalling system whilst the trains ran? Can't remember where that was said or if it was indeed Madrid, but it was done, and recently. And someone said it on this very forum. Not sure who though...

What, in tunnel sections? I know nothing about Madrid, but I can assure you people and trains don't fit together in the same space on LU!

Whilst some limited work can be done on LU, in the open sections, whilst trains run, the protection methods available and the type of work permitted mean you can certainly rule out installing anything whilst trains are running. The only type of work permitted is inspection (or possibly minor remedial work between trains).

The one sole exception is emergency work - and that's where protection will involve holding trains.

May 25, 2009 18:24:37 GMT Ben said:

The OP asked "is this the shape of things to come for ever and ever?".

It shouldn't be for ever; people should rightly remember the fact the tube ran near enough well enough with just normal engineering hours before the PPP. The engineers would love a tube closed for maintenence on the weekends ( , the public dont want this though! However, as time wears on and people become accustomed to weekend closures the risk is run of it seeming 'normal' to have these shutdowns. Certainly the more frequently it happens the more acceptable a practice it becomes. I think this is wrong.

Of course it shouldn't be forever - I certainly hope not anyway as the current number of temporary timetables stacking up at home is getting silly!

Seriously though, how many weekend shutdowns were there in the 80's? How many new trains were introduced between 1983 and 1992? How much was the system used in the 80's (when service levels were seriously reduced) compared to now?

Point is there has been an explosion in use of the network (ie, number of customers), and investment in assets (maintenance & renewals) such that there is most certainly a blindingly obvious difference between the 80's/early 90's and the situation today.

Bottom line is (and this is not personally aimed at Ben but is to everyone) times change and you'll either have to adapt and get used to it or live in the past!