We're getting tired of closures

[Ben]

A fascinating insight, stanmorek. I do very much hope a book is written at some point on the subject.

[Deleted]

stanmorek, from what you say, I have reduced Metronet and PPP into simple economics, which I well accept is probably the case. Many of the issues you discussed, had never even occured to me!

But I think that's the problem - politicians who take ultimate responsibility - as we've seen in Metronet's collapse, often have the same level of experience as I.... So if you leave them at the helm in terms of a state run enterprise as was the case historically, or put it out of their hands as with PPP, those same politicians will set the parameters of any undertaking. Ultimately, The Underground is too complex and big and organisation as you rightly point out to be managed by any such a limited number of people. That's the only real reason I would suggest micro management. You can try and reduce the problem of historical politics, personality and self serving ambition.

I realise I have somewhat contradicted myself above. I simply mean that I think micro management of lines in terms of investment and renovations without such a strong influence of LU's historical organisational culture may make for fresh imputus toward the overall goal of running a world class service for London with minimum disruption while the innovation, repairs and maintenance are carried out.

[Deleted]

PS when I say politicians have the same level of experience as myslef, I mean to say that they often have theoretical background or experience of management without a practical LU background.

[stanmorek]

Cityboy I appreciate you were discussing in financial terms. I just wanted to put this into the context of what was happening in the background.

The idea of sweeping away the perceived inefficiencies of public sector management by bringing in “world class” engineering and management expertise from the private sector was what PPP was supposed to do. Yes there were improvements but in the end the shareholders were talking the same the language and behaving in the same as their ex-LU colleagues. The reason being LUL weren’t going to play ball with them and as infrastructure operator could not be bypassed.

On the difficulties associated with the complexity and size of LU, it is a monster to manage but the paradox is the argument that the fragmentation due to PPP needs to be reversed. It’s considered it will operate more efficiently with a single person taking responsibility. Those at the coal face may have a detailed picture of the particular area they are responsible for but not an appreciation of which direction the company is heading. Those at the top may have sight of the bigger picture but in simpler terms and can see patterns developing but have no idea to why until it’s too late.

On the issue of political intrigue, it has been taking place in LU and its predecessors throughout its history as with any other large institution.

[stanmorek]

May 31, 2009 21:26:53 GMT @cityboy said:

PS when I say politicians have the same level of experience as myslef, I mean to say that they often have theoretical background or experience of management without a practical LU background.

That seems to be the current thinking in other industries in that someone without preconceived ideas is brought in to examine the system and apply modern management theories. Aren't they called management consultants? ;D

[mcmaddog]

Anyone have any idea what was achieved last weekend (27/28 June)? I travelled the Met on both Sat and Sun and only saw flashing red lights on the track and bars across the conductor rails. There wasn't a single member of staff/test train visible anywhere, the platform countdown displays had nothing to show other than the time, even the old (current) signalling system was still in use.

[Tubeboy]

Test trains were going through Bermondsey all day, both days. Computer showed 4 trains running. When they came in, they were opening the platform edge doors as well as the train doors. This has happened the last few closures. Prior to that, the trains were just berthed in the platform and proceeded when given authority.

[Deleted]

A lot of workmen and cable were hard at work on the Jubilee Line at Baker Street.

[mcmaddog]

OK cheers for the replies, I hope you could understand that from what I saw between Finchley Rd and Wembley Pk it looked like they'd closed the entire line, just because ...

[d7666]

There are usually multiple re-signalling tasks under way at any time.

You can sometimes find test train on one section, SER/IMR work at others, trackside cabling at yet more, all divided into different work zones / possessions / closures / whatever term you like to use. When testing in IMRs, air is taken off the frames, and via a relay changeover cubicle control taken by the new gubbins ... gubbins that does not have track circuits ... ... as FIR WHD WIG NEA WEP IMRs have Met as well as Jub control it means Met.s can't run either. I am not saying this is good weekend after weekend nor am I saying that is what they were doing, but it is a primary general cause.

One important job that *was* carried out on 27/28 June weekend was at BAS IMR - testing of the Jubilee <-> Bakerloo link. I can't recall if the Bakerloo was disrupted or if the work was done in engineering hours , but it was certainly carried out, largely sucessfully so I hear.


--
Nick

[tubeprune]

There was a testing failure of some sort on Monday morning when a test train had to be pushed out from N Greenwich. They managed to get a 12-car train gapped. For some reason not clear to me, they wanted to get the train to Stratford. The Jubilee was a mess during the am peak. Anyone know the true story?

[21146]

Any sensible person would not allow shutdowns on the east end of the District and Jubilee Lines to co-incide and I believe this has generally been the case in the past. However with Tube Lines underestimating the time needed to complete ATO work by end of year LU have now allowed them far more weekend possessions (Evening Standard 7/7/09). These are now clashing with major events at the O2, plus with District Line work which has not been cancelled to compensate. Surely if a private company cannot finish agreed work in the estimated time this should run late and the appropriate penalties paid (even at the risk of a Metronet-type conclusion)? Instead thousands of people are being inconvenienced at weekends with no trains, no easy alternatives, or crammed into Central Line trains. I envisage a new poster "Is your journey really necessary?".

[johnb]

No, it's far better to annoy a few people who aren't likely to be doing anything particularly important (it being a working day for a small proportion of the population, and a very small proportion of people who commute into Central London by Tube), than to allow the work to overrun further. And LU will indeed be able to claim compo off Tube Lines for the disruption.

[21146]

London is supposed to be a 24/7 'World City'. Why not go back to the Sat/Sun WTTs of the 1970s? They'll be lots more Sat and Sun RD's for staff then!

[Deleted]

As much as I hate to say this, the last thing any LU member of staff wants - or the London tax payer - is for Tubelines to follow Metronet.

[21146]

For the first time maybe in 10-15 years I put a public complaint into LU today regarding the weekend Jubilee shutdowns co-inciding with District suspensions.

Sorry, lt's one or the other. If Tubelines want more, then cancel Metronet's (I mean, LUL Nominie SSL).

I just wish weekend working was optional, it certainly hasn't been seen a) LU company plan, or b) sunday trading dereglation.

[version3point1]

With regards to the O2 – all this media coverage regarding Madonna's recent gigs over the weekend there are a load of tripe. For starters, they were all harking on about how they were 'outraged' to 'find out' about the weekend closures. AEG have know about our planned closures well in advance – it's written into the contract that London Underground (and the associated station group) have with the AEG and the O2 and also advised time after time at the general meetings held every so often. So AEG have no excuse – if they want to plan events when they know there are closures, more fool them, and more fool the people willing the pay the money to them and the artists/bands/whatever. thelondon(bog)paper were going on like it was something people only found out a day before the shows – please!

They have the choice of providing for THEIR customers before and after a show – if they choose to let Madonna run on until 2300 (and main egress was about 2330), then how those 16,000+ people get home at that time is their problem, bearing in mind it takes anything between 30-40 minutes on a usual day to clear the station when services are running. So to the woman who was moaning about how it took her 'hours' to get home to Finchley Road – I have no sympathy whatsoever. You chose to stay in the pub until the crowd died down and even if trains were running, by the time you made your way to the station, the last train would have gone anyway.

AEG currently pay the Ahead bus company to run an express route from North Greenwich into Central London, via Waterloo, Charing X and Victoria. One double-decker bus operates the route, leaving at a specific time. They used to have several buses operating the route, but the O2 wont pay for it any more and you now have to PRE-BOOK the tickets before you board. The reason they withdrew the pay-when-you-board facility is because it is about £7 for a ticket and thus the O2 and the bus company didn't fancy the idea of drivers being responsible for £300+ for the whole journey. AEG also to pay to run a shuttle service comprising of several bendy buses to Charlton Railway Station, but due to the apparent 'lack of demand' for the route, they withdrew the service completely. Now week after week I'm still getting people asking for that clucking bus.

Between 17:15-00:15 replacement boat service is available between the O2 and Reuters Pier (in Canary Wharf), and customers can then connect for the DLR. It is a fairly speedy service, but despite the advertisement, people still don't know it exists.

I'm not saying I don't empathise – I think I can empathise more than most of these whinging cretins. "It's taken me an hour to get from Baker Street to here," they cry. So what? It takes me longer than that on a good day, more than two hours if some of the Metropolitan Line is shut and I still come into work, on time, and just get on with it – and my whole journey involves public transport. People say to me, "Well - it's your fault you come so far because you chose to live in Ruislip," and yes, I accept that, but I don't consider it a fault – who are London Underground to tell me where to live? I'll live where I want, thanks – and at the moment, that means as far away from where I work as possible if I can help it! It's your fault you paid £120 to see Madonna and however much more for you train ticket from Birmingham – nobody asked you to – and people can't accept that.

Considering the shambles that was the test train with this new-fangled signalling craft and something happening with it over the weekend just gone (resulting in quite a lot of paperwork from quite a lot of people), these weekend closures on the Jubilee Line should continue until everything is working perfectly, and more importantly, in a reliable and SAFE fashion. We can't even guarantee that when everything goes 'live' that it'll work smoothly – it could all go to pot the minute we switch over, no matter how many mods, checks and test runs you do. Problem is, people want to have their cake and eat it.

[Tomcakes]

As I said in the Wimbledon thread not so long ago, I'd hope that the organisers of events (such as Wimbledon, such as events at the London Dome) took some degree of care & responsibility for the transport of the people attending the events.

Isn't there something in the application process for the licensing of such events which mandates this?

I'd have thought that finishing an event at 11pm is cutting it fine on a normal day anyway. 16,000 people is approx 16/17 tube trains at maximum cram loading, isn't it? If they had to catch a bus instead, that's 160... as for not wanting to lug £300 around - I've heard of far more being carried, and a safe could always be fitted.

[mrfs42]

IIRC, after 23:00 there are meant to be something like 19 trains each way at that end of the Jubilee, so albeit at a squeeze the UndergrounD would be a very big help in shifting the crowds away.

Edit: On a Saturday, if trains are running.

[pakenhamtrain]

Jul 9, 2009 23:11:20 GMT Tomcakes said:

I'd have thought that finishing an event at 11pm is cutting it fine on a normal day anyway. 16,000 people is approx 16/17 tube trains at maximum cram loading, isn't it? If they had to catch a bus instead, that's 160... as for not wanting to lug £300 around - I've heard of far more being carried, and a safe could always be fitted.

Doing the rough math It's just over 12.7 trains.

[angelislington]

Top rant, 3.1, well put.

I quite often have to leave gigs in London before the last few songs have played out, to get my last train home. I'm capable of looking at a watch and working things out. It's frustrating to have to pay for a ticket to a gig knowing I'll lop the end off the entertainment, but hey, I've always had that problem either when I lived in Wycombe or out here in C'bury. I can live with it!

I'd rather have more closures than fewer - I'd rather have a safer and more efficient network, and have the work done and out of the way.

[mcmaddog]

3.1 I'm going to completely disagree with your rant. I mainly want use the tube at weekends. Since I live in Rotherhithe that has meant that for the last year or two there has been pretty much no decent service available.
To close the ELL at a time of a overhaul on the JL is just plain inept. However what's done is done.
The resignalling chaos that has ensued obviously as a result of staff who can't do their job correctly is not my fault. It was advertised as a slick resignalling scheme using proven technology to avoid risk. Well somewhere along it became a cock up.
Now, I do understand that everything will be great on 1st Jan and we should bow down to the engineers who achieve it but until then it just plain sucks.
If you look at how signalling schemes were done under BR they tended to do a lot of preparation and then a 2 or 3 week blockade. I for one would have much preferred this style of work however again, what's done is done.
So forgive us for moaning, and by the way, I think this thread title is sublime, but as a user I just want a service and perhaps a bit of empathy from those in charge.

[21146]

Jul 8, 2009 23:32:20 GMT @21146 said:

For the first time maybe in 10-15 years I put a public complaint into LU today regarding the weekend Jubilee shutdowns co-inciding with District suspensions.

Sorry, lt's one or the other. If Tubelines want more, then cancel Metronet's (I mean, LUL Nominie SSL).

I just wish weekend working was optional, it certainly hasn't been seen a) LU company plan, or b) sunday trading dereglation.

No response from LU so far either....

[johnb]

AEG (own the company that) runs the boats, so it's entirely their fault that they fail to publicise them properly.

The wider point is, the Tube is essential on weekdays, and a pleasant luxury at weekends when buses, national rail trains and the DLR are available and not packed. If you live in Rotherhithe you can easily get a bus to London Bridge or southwards on a Sunday.

And a 3-week blockade of the Jubilee would be completely unmanagable, as businesses in Canary Wharf would have to shut down for the duration - even if it were possible to do the work in the required time, which it probably wouldn't be. This isn't a BR style 'new lights' thing, it's completely replacing the signalling equipment with something which runs on an entirely different principle.

[Colin]

Jul 10, 2009 9:37:56 GMT mcmaddog said:

If you look at how signalling schemes were done under BR

Jul 10, 2009 11:22:53 GMT @johnb said:

This isn't a BR style 'new lights' thing, it's completely replacing the signalling equipment with something which runs on an entirely different principle.

Absolutely right johnb. The Jubilee line isn't BR, Railtrack, Network Rail or anything else other than a London Underground 'tube' line.

London Underground, and the way things are done, are nothing like other railways in the UK; so the comparison is pointless.

[Deleted]

Integrated thinking ....... 70,000 people leaving the Oasis gig on Sunday night with no service on the Jubilee line. Not good. Did anybody else out there experience Baker Street after 22:30? Madness.

[Deleted]

All this just makes London look like a joke. heavon knows how we will manage the Olympics, what with track improvements works. No doubt Mr Crowe will also decide to hold a strike just to really throw it in the mix!

[Ben]

Presumably there'll have to be period where the closures are put on hold for the olympics?

[Deleted]

One would hope!

[johnb]

There's an enormous, detailed plan for how public transport will work during the Olympics - and yes, that includes putting major infrastructure works on hold for the duration.