Shunt Signals

[happybunny]

Are there any plans in place to get rid of traditional turning disc shunt signals on LUL, in favour of position light or even LED shunts (like they have on the Central line)?

After all, aren't the disc shunts the sort-of equivalent of semaphore signals, which of course went years ago on LU.

[Deleted]

Sept 23, 2009 13:21:47 GMT @happybunny said:

Are there any plans in place to get rid of traditional turning disc shunt signals on LUL, in favour of position light or even LED shunts (like they have on the Central line)?

After all, aren't the disc shunts the sort-of equivalent of semaphore signals, which of course went years ago on LU.

I'm pretty sure we'll have LED shunt signals when re signalling takes place, the Central line had disc signals pre re signalling.

[Deleted]

well when a new signal is installed like the one at upminster reception road it is indeed a fibre optic type shunt and also around triangle sidings they also the newer type. but for the rest of them they will stay the mechanical type until they decide to re signal

[metman]

Were the shunt's installed in Wembley Park North roads new or just cleaned up?

[Deleted]

refurbed as part of routine change no doubt if not just a new disc would of been installed i think they are changed every 18 years or is it 15 can never rememeber

[Tom]

Sept 23, 2009 13:21:47 GMT @happybunny said:

Are there any plans in place to get rid of traditional turning disc shunt signals on LUL, in favour of position light or even LED shunts (like they have on the Central line)?

Ultimately, as has been suggested already, yes.

All pneumatically operated kit is on borrowed time as the air main that feeds them is treated as a pressure vessel and requires annual testing to conform with the pressure vessel regulations.

Unfortunately a continuous pipe the length of each line is rather difficult to test and the paln is to eliminate the air main to remove this requirement.

[Deleted]

The National Railway Museum claimed the last set of pneumatic signalling on the national network from Salisbury in 1981 so one would hope that the LT museum will do the same and claim some from the last installation on LT. I never realised that the LT ones were pneumatic. 'Puff and Dart' is alive and well!

[Deleted]

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that when a running signal is re-lamped, the bulb is replaced with a LED type "bulb", the running signal between Kings Cross and Caledonian Road for example.

[Deleted]

for a LED to be replaced a safety Authroity to Work Certificate (AWC) has to be issued before it can be done. But LED's by themselves would not be installed during traffic hours as with tunnel type signal heads which have 2 bulbs in it the front bulb holder is usually blanked off and the LED is installed in the rear holder which would of been the MAIN lamp with the STANDBY at the front. I have noticed when doing jobs and I get a lift back with a Picc line driver between barons court and earls court the green is really green not the usual light green if you understand i dont know if they newer lenses or they just do a better job of cleaning them . But on SSL and BCV a bulb is never replaced with a LED in traffic. Tubylines might have different procedures but I'm sure that procedure has come from LUL's chief signalling engineer

[Deleted]

The particular siganl i'm referring to is definetely brighter this week than it was last, scared the life out of me when it showed a red aspect as it looked so much closer than it actually is!. We do have a few signals that are definetely LED's, those between Earls Court and Gloucester Road eastbound. I recall that when they converted the signals to LED's on the district it appeared in the traffic circular. Would they change signals over piecemeal without advertising it, or would all concerned need to be informed?.

[railtechnician]

Sept 24, 2009 21:47:36 GMT @aetearlscourt said:

for a LED to be replaced a safety Authroity to Work Certificate (AWC) has to be issued before it can be done. But LED's by themselves would not be installed during traffic hours as with tunnel type signal heads which have 2 bulbs in it the front bulb holder is usually blanked off and the LED is installed in the rear holder which would of been the MAIN lamp with the STANDBY at the front. I have noticed when doing jobs and I get a lift back with a Picc line driver between barons court and earls court the green is really green not the usual light green if you understand i dont know if they newer lenses or they just do a better job of cleaning them . But on SSL and BCV a bulb is never replaced with a LED in traffic. Tubylines might have different procedures but I'm sure that procedure has come from LUL's chief signalling engineer

On the Picc we were possibly the first line to switch to LED running signal lamps which must be 7 or 8 years ago now. I still don't know what the situation is with outside sections because at the time the LED lamps were unsuitable but certainly all the tunnel signal and repeater lamps were changed to LEDs soon after we changed all the trainstop Davis motors for the lighter Midland variety and all the WLs in the chairlock points to the new type. We were always very pro-active on the Picc in terms of remedial work and other work as that is what the Signal Manager liked, for instance fitting Norgren filters to all the EP valve lines in the Acton area. It was a nice interlude which broke up the routine signal maintenance module work. Policy was for every Picc TO to have a project or two on the go for those times when maintenance was up to date and we used to take on some installation tasks too. We routine changed an awful lot of 'Q' relays week on week too before the task was outsourced, of course this was pre-Tube Lines and things changed from 2002.

I am not surprised that the air main is set to go, I think this was quite evident when JLE was built with individual local area compressors. Of course LUs compressed air main was/is the large such distribution system in the world AFAIK and when it goes it will signal the end of an era. I don't think anyone can deny that LU has been well served by EP systems which have proved their worth over decades being used in so many diverse ways including such things as opening the old signal school car park gates at Earl's Court!

Like many things the air main is probably a victim of H&S requirements, presumably local compressors will still be required at all stations unless the UTS gates are going to change from EP to other operation.

Regulation, licensing, H&S, political correctness and the blame culture will in the end see the complete and utter demise of the railway that I enjoyed being a part of for almost three decades.

As for changing signal bulbs in traffic, surely as with all things signals the rule is still like for like replacement from a maintenance viewpoint so a defective LED would be replaced with another LED.
I agree that a bulb would not be replaced by a LED during traffic hours as it has to be checked for sighting.
Of course the days of changing signal bulbs in traffic are coming to a close too, the last I heard such practices were outlawed on JLE and the service staff would rather run trains under failure conditions and appropriate rules than allow linemen to work on the track even for a minute. I am told that no work would be permitted in the tunnels without discharging traction first so relamping signals is a no-no just as investigating and localising track failures is.

[North End]

Sept 25, 2009 19:17:56 GMT railtechnician said:

Of course the days of changing signal bulbs in traffic are coming to a close too, the last I heard such practices were outlawed on JLE and the service staff would rather run trains under failure conditions and appropriate rules than allow linemen to work on the track even for a minute. I am told that no work would be permitted in the tunnels without discharging traction first so relamping signals is a no-no just as investigating and localising track failures is.

I can't speak for the Jubilee (toy railway), but on the Northern Line relamping signals using a train for protection is alive and well -- or at least it was before I went on leave 3 weeks ago!

[Tubeboy]

Station starters were being re-lamped on the JLE until a few months back, one was done at my station.

[21146]

"Regulation, licensing, H&S, political correctness and the blame culture will in the end see the complete and utter demise of the railway that I enjoyed being a part of for almost three decades"

My God there you've summed up everything I've felt for years about the organisation - LT of course - that has now been so changed/corrupted etc, which I joined in good faith and signed up to the values taught at the RTC etc, but now feel so alienated to by the changes caused by my employment firstly, with LRT. and then even worse, TFL!

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2009 18:49:26 GMT @upinthesky said:

The particular siganl i'm referring to is definetely brighter this week than it was last, scared the life out of me when it showed a red aspect as it looked so much closer than it actually is!. We do have a few signals that are definetely LED's, those between Earls Court and Gloucester Road eastbound. I recall that when they converted the signals to LED's on the district it appeared in the traffic circular. Would they change signals over piecemeal without advertising it, or would all concerned need to be informed?.

When the project staff went round and converted the lamps to LED's a email was sent to the service manager for each line involved. Most of the signals between earls court and Gloucester road are operated by 14v or 17v lamps (again xan't remember off top of head) and are mostly of the outdoor version of signal head they have 2 lenses one clear and one coloured these are known as Long Range Colour Light heads,and at the moment there is no LED suitable for these. At Acton Works they were playing around with LED's which replaced the lenses (like NR and traffic lights) but nothing has come around from this. The LED's currently what LUL have approved will only go in a tunnel type head/Short Range Colour Light head as these are also different as they are fed 100v. They could in theory put LED's in fog repeaters as these are just SRCL heads and are 100v fed but again the powers that be have declined possible because they would be alot brighter then the main running signal. So for signals in outside areas 98% of these would be normal lamps and not LED's

this is a outside signal head

www.trainweb.org/districtdave/assets/images/Sig_Head_with_Pigs_Ear.jpg

this is a tunnel type head

www.trainweb.org/districtdave/assets/images/Tunnel_Signal_Head.jpg

Hope Dave don't mind me using his pic ;D ;D ;D

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2009 19:17:56 GMT railtechnician said:

Sept 24, 2009 21:47:36 GMT @aetearlscourt said:

for a LED to be replaced a safety Authroity to Work Certificate (AWC) has to be issued before it can be done. But LED's by themselves would not be installed during traffic hours as with tunnel type signal heads which have 2 bulbs in it the front bulb holder is usually blanked off and the LED is installed in the rear holder which would of been the MAIN lamp with the STANDBY at the front. I have noticed when doing jobs and I get a lift back with a Picc line driver between barons court and earls court the green is really green not the usual light green if you understand i dont know if they newer lenses or they just do a better job of cleaning them . But on SSL and BCV a bulb is never replaced with a LED in traffic. Tubylines might have different procedures but I'm sure that procedure has come from LUL's chief signalling engineer

On the Picc we were possibly the first line to switch to LED running signal lamps which must be 7 or 8 years ago now. I still don't know what the situation is with outside sections because at the time the LED lamps were unsuitable but certainly all the tunnel signal and repeater lamps were changed to LEDs soon after we changed all the trainstop Davis motors for the lighter Midland variety and all the WLs in the chairlock points to the new type. We were always very pro-active on the Picc in terms of remedial work and other work as that is what the Signal Manager liked, for instance fitting Norgren filters to all the EP valve lines in the Acton area. It was a nice interlude which broke up the routine signal maintenance module work. Policy was for every Picc TO to have a project or two on the go for those times when maintenance was up to date and we used to take on some installation tasks too. We routine changed an awful lot of 'Q' relays week on week too before the task was outsourced, of course this was pre-Tube Lines and things changed from 2002.

I am not surprised that the air main is set to go, I think this was quite evident when JLE was built with individual local area compressors. Of course LUs compressed air main was/is the large such distribution system in the world AFAIK and when it goes it will signal the end of an era. I don't think anyone can deny that LU has been well served by EP systems which have proved their worth over decades being used in so many diverse ways including such things as opening the old signal school car park gates at Earl's Court!

Like many things the air main is probably a victim of H&S requirements, presumably local compressors will still be required at all stations unless the UTS gates are going to change from EP to other operation.

Regulation, licensing, H&S, political correctness and the blame culture will in the end see the complete and utter demise of the railway that I enjoyed being a part of for almost three decades.

As for changing signal bulbs in traffic, surely as with all things signals the rule is still like for like replacement from a maintenance viewpoint so a defective LED would be replaced with another LED.
I agree that a bulb would not be replaced by a LED during traffic hours as it has to be checked for sighting.
Of course the days of changing signal bulbs in traffic are coming to a close too, the last I heard such practices were outlawed on JLE and the service staff would rather run trains under failure conditions and appropriate rules than allow linemen to work on the track even for a minute. I am told that no work would be permitted in the tunnels without discharging traction first so relamping signals is a no-no just as investigating and localising track failures is.

Q realys are no longer routined changed and only get changed if they fail we have examples from High St ken (alot of) that are still 1990 vintage.

We still do relamps but a NO NO would be a signal in the 6ft, also now after a serious incident where someone fell off a signal ladder (our line) all signal gantrys and posts have to have a safety tag on them green tag is safe and red tag is unsafe but again its upto the t/o at the end of the day its his life in danger.

[railtechnician]

Sept 26, 2009 0:43:25 GMT @aetearlscourt said:

Q realys are no longer routined changed and only get changed if they fail we have examples from High St ken (alot of) that are still 1990 vintage.

We still do relamps but a NO NO would be a signal in the 6ft, also now after a serious incident where someone fell off a signal ladder (our line) all signal gantrys and posts have to have a safety tag on them green tag is safe and red tag is unsafe but again its upto the t/o at the end of the day its his life in danger.

We used to go out and change, optimally, four pairs of Q relays per shift on the section between Acton Town and Heathrow but it could be tough with the circuitry looping back and forth for hundreds of yards between several kiosks from a testing viewpoint and relatively short track time. But it was more interesting than some tasks despite the sore wrists (for those who don't know every contact has to be unscrewed to remove this type of Q relay and then screwed in to the replacement, about 35 screws per fully loaded single relay).

On the relamps there was only one signal that I refused to relamp and in fact it wasn't the signal itself but the harbour lights on WL25 at Acton. The signal is one of the tallest in the area and the fixed ladder ended beneath the signal head as do the majority but with little to hang on to with one hand one would need to stand on the top rung and still struggle to change a bulb halfway up the display board.

My recollection is that circa 2000 we did surveys of signals in open sections with a view to safety improvements. Following the surveys hoops were fitted to WL103C as a trial and safety harnesses issued. In some ways the hoops made relamping more precarious as they forced one to climb the ladder at an unnatural angle, the hoops themselves then becoming hazards to one's head!

I suspect that at some point most existing signals in open areas will be out of bounds in traffic hours pending improvements. Safest of all would be perhaps to be able to relamp at ground level so perhaps a switch to a different signal type will be the way to improve H&S for linemen.

[Deleted]

well i went to a meeting about a year ago and one suggestion was to design the signal like a gatso speed camera where the head would lower to a workable level on the groundbut i suppose nothing came about it. Theres 47 signals on the district & picc combined which cannot be maintained safely due to a structure problem of some sort. So they dont climb the structure at all in either traffic or engineering hours if they need relamping then a zip tower or cherry picker is requested that night.

[railtechnician]

Sept 26, 2009 9:05:35 GMT @aetearlscourt said:

well i went to a meeting about a year ago and one suggestion was to design the signal like a gatso speed camera where the head would lower to a workable level on the groundbut i suppose nothing came about it. Theres 47 signals on the district & picc combined which cannot be maintained safely due to a structure problem of some sort. So they dont climb the structure at all in either traffic or engineering hours if they need relamping then a zip tower or cherry picker is requested that night.

I think that was inevitable really and no doubt there will be more meetings as H&S concerns are addressed further.
Funnily enough I had the gatso idea having watched them being worked on but realised almost immediately that there would be all sorts of complications. However, in the same vein, thinking about searchlight signals, roadside keep left lanterns and a little lateral thinking I had what I think is a much better idea;

Make the signal heads ground/low level units using either individual aspect LEDs or a newly designed single multi aspect LED cluster and instead of a load bearing signal post erect a strong but lightweight fibre optic light pipe with single aspect as required for appropriate sighting. It would be easier to install and could for instance be mounted directly above a signalling kiosk or form part of the standard signal location rather than requiring a separate concrete base, ladder etc etc. I appreciate that the post would need to be rigid enough and that sighting could be an issue too as a lightweight pipe might be subject to movement in the wind but there at least is the seed of an idea next time you are party to such discussions.

[Tom]

Sept 26, 2009 0:43:25 GMT @aetearlscourt said:

We still do relamps but a NO NO would be a signal in the 6ft, also now after a serious incident where someone fell off a signal ladder (our line) all signal gantrys and posts have to have a safety tag on them green tag is safe and red tag is unsafe but again its upto the t/o at the end of the day its his life in danger.

That particular incident was made worse by the close proximity of the NR lines to the signal concerned.

Bearing in mind the grief we had to get access to decommission it (NR Isolation and Possession) and from my simple knowledge of the NR rules, I suspect the individual shouldn't have been on the ground at the bottom of the signal ladder if he wasn't NR trained, as he was a lot closer than the prescribed 3m of NR track.

[Deleted]

Tom you have a PM

[Deleted]

Tom i dont think we talking about the same incident the signal concerned is still in full working order

[Tom]

No it isn't - it was decommissioned in April.

www.flickr.com/photos/signals/3476889841/

[Deleted]

so it was i can not remembering seeing anything about it theres no c signal is there its then just FC1

[Tom]

That's right - had Plaistow not been a controlled area FC1 would have been A912^C.