SE13
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2013
Glorious Gooner
Posts: 9,737
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Post by SE13 on Nov 1, 2009 17:58:03 GMT
A grand is just a bargain regardless of which stock you are after.
Agree about the transport cost, I dread to think how much that would run into. But my garden has enough room........
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2009 19:18:02 GMT
As far as I know, at the moment, NO ´A´ stock can "stable" at Wembley Park sidings. trains can recess there during return event traffic (with a train op on board), but stabling as in the sense of a train op leaving or joining the train there, cannot be done at the moment as (AFIAK) no agreed walk time for the purpose of booking on/off times exists The sidings (all 5 of them) were used just a couple of months ago when Neasden depot was experiencing signalling problems within the depot. There is nothing preventing outstabling of trains in the sidings overnight, and when it comes to walk times, they do, I believe, remain as they were when the sidings were surrounded by brick walls. Failing this, you simply need to get the train in there with ample time for the driver to get off and return to the DMT. At present, there are no "booked" stablers, and as none of the duty sheets include "booked" walking time to/from the sheds. But a little common sense always goes a long way. That may have been the case a few weeks back under local arrangement and in a "one off" situation, but in order to build this into a WTT or on a regular basis, walking times etc have still to be agreed. "common sense", "taking a good guess" or "what happened 5 years ago", isn't good enough for the science of creating a train crew duty schedue! As for the point on train prep, I imagine the trains would be prepped in Wembley Park sidings overnight, as there would be no scope to change trains over at Neasden as is the practice on other lines. There simply wouldnt be paths out of the depot at the desired times to get 3 changed over trains into Wembley Park Sidings, allied to the fact that this could possibly result in the requirement for additional train ops. |
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Post by citysig on Nov 1, 2009 20:08:40 GMT
That may have been the case a few weeks back under local arrangement and in a "one off" situation, but in order to build this into a WTT or on a regular basis, walking times etc have still to be agreed. "common sense", "taking a good guess" or "what happened 5 years ago", isn't good enough for the science of creating a train crew duty schedue! As for the point on train prep, I imagine the trains would be prepped in Wembley Park sidings overnight, as there would be no scope to change trains over at Neasden as is the practice on other lines. There simply wouldnt be paths out of the depot at the desired times to get 3 changed over trains into Wembley Park Sidings, allied to the fact that this could possibly result in the requirement for additional train ops. I could not disagree more with you on your whole post, and your assumptions could not be more wrong. First off, the scheduling of trains into the timetable and duty sheets is not rocket science (despite those in the know making it look as if it is). If it was, how on earth did myself and a couple of colleagues easily work out how to get currently in-service trains to stable in the sidings, with no effect on duties or the service itself. Second, to make it a permanent, written in arrangement does not take too much nouse either. It used to be in the timetables. Dust them off and see what we used to do. Like I said, the only real difference is the missing brickwork. Third, the trains can be prepped in Wembley Sidings, in the same way in which they are prepped in Uxbridge, Watford and Rickmansworth sidings. In fact, there are still traction current arrangements to allow the sidings to be fed after normal traffic hours to allow time for trains stabled there to be prepped. Fourth, to get "new" trains onto the road and "old" trains back to depot within a timetable is not a new phenomenon either. The H&C (for one) has been doing it for years now. Clean / fully prepped trains leave depot between 2130 and 2300, and effectively change over with other trains which are required back in depot for more indepth maintenance. Pathing in and out of depot doesn't have to happen at last knockings when everything is trying to stable. An hour or two prior to this is not a problem. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2009 11:48:36 GMT
That may have been the case a few weeks back under local arrangement and in a "one off" situation, but in order to build this into a WTT or on a regular basis, walking times etc have still to be agreed. "common sense", "taking a good guess" or "what happened 5 years ago", isn't good enough for the science of creating a train crew duty schedue! As for the point on train prep, I imagine the trains would be prepped in Wembley Park sidings overnight, as there would be no scope to change trains over at Neasden as is the practice on other lines. There simply wouldnt be paths out of the depot at the desired times to get 3 changed over trains into Wembley Park Sidings, allied to the fact that this could possibly result in the requirement for additional train ops. I could not disagree more with you on your whole post, and your assumptions could not be more wrong. First off, the scheduling of trains into the timetable and duty sheets is not rocket science (despite those in the know making it look as if it is). If it was, how on earth did myself and a couple of colleagues easily work out how to get currently in-service trains to stable in the sidings, with no effect on duties or the service itself. Second, to make it a permanent, written in arrangement does not take too much nouse either. It used to be in the timetables. Dust them off and see what we used to do. Like I said, the only real difference is the missing brickwork. Third, the trains can be prepped in Wembley Sidings, in the same way in which they are prepped in Uxbridge, Watford and Rickmansworth sidings. In fact, there are still traction current arrangements to allow the sidings to be fed after normal traffic hours to allow time for trains stabled there to be prepped. Fourth, to get "new" trains onto the road and "old" trains back to depot within a timetable is not a new phenomenon either. The H&C (for one) has been doing it for years now. Clean / fully prepped trains leave depot between 2130 and 2300, and effectively change over with other trains which are required back in depot for more indepth maintenance. Pathing in and out of depot doesn't have to happen at last knockings when everything is trying to stable. An hour or two prior to this is not a problem. 1.) I didnt say it was rocket science, I stated it was a science, meaning everything has to be 100% accurate and be agreed by the union reps, ie approved walk times. Im sure you and your colleagues are more than capable of working out solutions to temporary problems, as I am sure most people armed with a WTT on this forum are. However translating it to a full time solution given all the constraints is not the same thing! 2.) No - it doesnt take too much nouse, but as per 1. It has to be agreed. Go back to my earlier post. At present there is no agreed walking time to/from WPS for a permanent WTT or TTN. What happens in an emergency situation, or 5 years ago, simply cannot be taken for granted when issuing a new WTT containing an element of stabling that has not occured for a number of years. It doesn't matter whether there is no brickwork or the clouds in the sky are at a different angle. Union reps will want to exercise their right (correctly so) before new walking times are imposed upon them!!! 3.) Unclear on your point here. I stated that the trains are likely to be prepped in WPS. Not sure who you are disagreeing with??? 4.) Fully aware of change over trains on other lines. As I stated, getting paths in and out of Neasden is not as easy as Hammersmith for example. Yes - you can put trains in earlier, but how early? Lets say you put a prepped train in at 2200 when there is a path available out of NDT. What if that trains working the next day didnt stable till 2345 and there was no easy way to fix the train to stable before 2200? Also you need to take into account the finite nature of train op resource. Sending 3 prepped trains into WPS could potentially add on 90 minutes of additional driving time, which may not work with the current duty schedules, either at the time when paths are available out of NDT into WPS, or at any other time. As I stated there is a science to all of this, not rocket, but a science. Thats possibly why they employ people to carry out such a role as opposed to letting other staff have a pop at it in their tea breaks? |
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Post by citysig on Nov 2, 2009 18:17:23 GMT
You are clearly of the opinion, as a handful of others here are, that, rather than helping with the smooth operation of the railway and protection of their members, the unions are there simply to stop anything "new" happening.
On top of this, when you mention driver numbers, what of the additional staff being recruited in relation to Harrow?
Point 3 was a mistake on my part. I misread your post. I apologise.
If a train goes to the sidings early one evening, what is to stop it being used on a morning post-peak stabler?
Perhaps you should keep in mind the experience within our control room in comparison to other rooms, and realise we are more than capable to think of such things even in tea breaks. I am a Met Line Controller, not a mere rail enthusiast.
I think this brings to an end this discussion as far as I am concerned.
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Post by deadmans on Nov 2, 2009 19:17:05 GMT
Will they actually keep any odds and sods from the trains when they get scrapped, or does the whole lot go? Yes the schedule allows for both compressors to be kept, ( DHSC & W'HOUSE) motors, and ma's to keep the other units running. For example on unit 5132, the first to go 6 out of the eight motors are to be kept, the other two scrapped. |
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Post by deadmans on Nov 2, 2009 19:26:50 GMT
What about?  5173. 27.05.2007 Why is 5132 going first? It doesn't seem all that unreliable, also can you give me an approximate time at which 5130 will go? I like that unit!!!! Thanks.... 5173 WILL GO EARLY, when its in a fit state to move. Dont forget we have just lost our last road rail access, to it must move by rail. 5132 goes first because its already had its last programme lift ( some time ago ), and it is more of the more troublesome members of the family. THE LAST UNITS TO GO ARE HAVING THEIR LASTS LIFTS NOW. FOR EXAMPLE 5108/5109 DUE TO GO 01/09/2011 WAS DONE LAST WEEK. 5130 will go 02/02/2011. |
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Post by superteacher on Nov 2, 2009 22:14:32 GMT
There seem to be very definite dates for A stock removal, although I daresay things could change if some units fail completely, with these being withdrawn ahead of schedule.
Are stock withdrawals always planned out in as much detail as this? The last major withdrawal of stock was the 1959 / 62 stock - was this done in a similar way?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2009 23:41:17 GMT
You are clearly of the opinion, as a handful of others here are, that, rather than helping with the smooth operation of the railway and protection of their members, the unions are there simply to stop anything "new" happening. On top of this, when you mention driver numbers, what of the additional staff being recruited in relation to Harrow? Point 3 was a mistake on my part. I misread your post. I apologise. If a train goes to the sidings early one evening, what is to stop it being used on a morning post-peak stabler? Perhaps you should keep in mind the experience within our control room in comparison to other rooms, and realise we are more than capable to think of such things even in tea breaks. I am a Met Line Controller, not a mere rail enthusiast. I think this brings to an end this discussion as far as I am concerned. "I am a Met Line Controller, not a mere rail enthusiast" Quality ;D and everything you have talked about in our discussion comes from the 'short term/day to day/on the day viewpoint', things that you may have put in place to fix on the spot problems (as per NDT a few months back). What you do not appear to grasp are the strategic medium and long term planning elements as required to effect stock rotation, 24 hour train prep, train crew duty schedules (within the accepted TU framework and the finite train operator resource available), infraco consultation etc etc. when any of the above are put in to place for a WTT, a large number of people need to buy into and agree to such changes, no matter how small or insignificant you may think they are (walking times to WPS). Ignoring the little issues like this can be the downfall of any plan/project, especially when dealing with a unionised institution! so we come full circle, back to my original point, that at the moment trains cant stable at Wembley Park sidings on a permanent basis by means of a WTT, until a walking time for train ops is agreed. |
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prjb
Advisor
LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
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Post by prjb on Nov 4, 2009 23:08:17 GMT
IT has to happen so here are the details.  NO A STOCK DUE TO BE SCRAPPED BEFORE TRAIN 6 OF THE S STOCK IS IN FULL SERVICE. For various reasons the disposal date is being treated as the service withdrawal date. ( not the scrapping date ). The schedule takes into account - the last time the unit was lifted ( Programme lift ), component recovery, and the S stock timetable for service introduction. If the S Stock goes very well these units could go up to three months ahead of the dates shown. The first five to leave service should be: 5132. 16.08.2010 5179. 16.08.2010 5142. 24.08.2010 5207. 24.08.2010 5048. 01.09.2010. The last five to leave service should be. 5106. 16.01.2012 5118. 16.01.2012 5234. 16.01.2012 5136. 16.01.2012 5062. 16.01.2012 There are 10 units set to go on 16.01.2012, so the last in service date for the A60'S in now much clearer. Nearly all the last units are the double ended de - icer units for obvious reasons. 116 units are on the list, if users require details on one unit, i can provide these at no extra cost. ;D I'm not saying that this data is incorrect, this isn't really my part of the project. I did speak to the Project Manager responsible for scrapping the 'A' Stock today and they were very suprised to see this list. According to them they have not yet finalised what will be going and when. Again, not saying this is wrong but I just thought it worth mentioning. |
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Post by angelislington on Nov 4, 2009 23:52:10 GMT
shedcompnodosh, MetControl: play nicely, boys, or I shall tell teacher on you!   |
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,275
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Post by roythebus on Nov 8, 2009 11:11:29 GMT
Why should walking time be an issue? Has Wembley Park shed moved then? OK, I know the new stock is a bit lopnger, but we had this discussion at Waterloo many years ago after the flexible rostering strike of the early 1980's.
5 mins walking from the mess room to any platform was impossible. The shed master at the time tried it; he was a slow walker and in the evening peak it took him 12 mins from the mess room to platform 1, so reluctantly agreed a longer walking time.
Unions are there to negotiate with. they have a useful input and if they are consulted early enough in the process, alot of management time could be saved.
Maybe the control staff have the same tunnel vision (no pun intended) that drivers have, only looking at that day's events which could also cause problems tomorrow. Drivers only concentrate on what is in front of them. Again, if control staff are consulted, they usually have useful experience which could be passed on to the planners.
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Post by citysig on Nov 8, 2009 12:56:54 GMT
shedcompnodosh, MetControl: play nicely, boys, or I shall tell teacher on you! Myself and shedcompnodosh have had a small private conversation in which we have made friends again. No need to involve teacher ;D |
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Post by citysig on Nov 8, 2009 13:19:34 GMT
Why should walking time be an issue? Has Wembley Park shed moved then? OK, I know the new stock is a bit lopnger, but we had this discussion at Waterloo many years ago after the flexible rostering strike of the early 1980's. 5 mins walking from the mess room to any platform was impossible. The shed master at the time tried it; he was a slow walker and in the evening peak it took him 12 mins from the mess room to platform 1, so reluctantly agreed a longer walking time. Unions are there to negotiate with. they have a useful input and if they are consulted early enough in the process, alot of management time could be saved. Maybe the control staff have the same tunnel vision (no pun intended) that drivers have, only looking at that day's events which could also cause problems tomorrow. Drivers only concentrate on what is in front of them. Again, if control staff are consulted, they usually have useful experience which could be passed on to the planners. The shed is no longer a shed, and the roads themselves were renewed. Unfortunately in this day and age, when you change something, even if it is for something almost identical, new agreements have to be reached. The Health and Safety and Union orientated world we work in - just as in many other companies worldwide - means the i's have to be dotted and the t's crossed. Unfortunately, this can result in a world where we did have many many staff who would go slightly above and beyond the call of duty - for example walking an extra minute or so and not worrying about it. In today's climate, they are basically forbidden from doing so in case their colleague is against it. |
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Post by deadmans on Nov 8, 2009 20:25:37 GMT
Can we please get back to the starting subject??!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2009 21:12:15 GMT
Well, out of curiousity, what's the source of the list of withdrawal dates you originally posted? Is it an official list, or is it a hypothesis based on last overhaul dates and so on - as prjb or his well-placed contact don't recognise the list it would be interesting to know.
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Post by deadmans on Nov 8, 2009 21:22:06 GMT
Well, out of curiousity, what's the source of the list of withdrawal dates you originally posted? Is it an official list, or is it a hypothesis based on last overhaul dates and so on - as prjb or his well-placed contact don't recognise the list it would be interesting to know. Yes its a official list, and is freely available within the company, and inside the depot. I dont feel that i have to justify my information to you or any other user. Neither do i require/use/need a " well placed contact "All my information is first hand. |
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,348
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Post by Colin on Nov 9, 2009 2:20:51 GMT
prjb is an Operational Task Manager with LU's SSR Upgrades team and is directly responsible for ensuring S stock is designed to LU's requirements, as well as S stock's introduction into service with LU - so we know that what he says is fact.
We don't know who you are and so it is quite fair & reasonable for members to ask questions to ensure they are not being led up the proverbial garden path. This is in no way a reflection of mis-trust; quoting the source merely ensures that members will view you as credible.
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,275
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Post by roythebus on Nov 9, 2009 19:41:31 GMT
Begs the question as to how much they would want for a DM unit, given that unless someone buys it, it'll go for pence anyway. Minus the traction equipment (all that lovely copper) I'd imagine a few hundred quid.......certainly not much more than £1,000. Mind you,definitely "buyer collects".....! Depends on the proce of scrap ali at the time of disposal. For transport, I can recommend John Antell in Somerset. He does all the movements for the K&ESR and IWSR. Oh, and provides piggy back for "Thomas"! |
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prjb
Advisor
LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
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Post by prjb on Nov 9, 2009 21:17:14 GMT
Well, out of curiousity, what's the source of the list of withdrawal dates you originally posted? Is it an official list, or is it a hypothesis based on last overhaul dates and so on - as prjb or his well-placed contact don't recognise the list it would be interesting to know. Yes its a official list, and is freely available within the company, and inside the depot. I dont feel that i have to justify my information to you or any other user. Neither do i require/use/need a " well placed contact "All my information is first hand. Hey, I'm not trying to start a, or should I say another , dispute. I am merely saying that after seeing your list I went along to see the Project Manager within Upgrades who is responsible for scrapping the 'A' Stock. I asked them how everything was going (as this isn't my part of the Upgrade) and commented on the fact that things must be progressing well since they had got a scrapping list with units/dates put together. They were quite suprised to hear this and even more suprised when they saw this thread, as they claim not to have put anything together yet. Again, I'm not saying your wrong (I don't know who you are or where you work) but I am saying that the PM responsible for this area knows nothing about your list. On a connected note, most members here are quite friendly and will ask questions about the information posted. I personally have answered countless questions over the years on 'S' Stock matters and Upgrade matters in general too, and I have asked a few questions myself along the way. There are staff members, enthusiasts, and members of the travelling public who all jostle around and gain knowledge from one another. If someone does question your posts it really isn't personal or meant as an insult, it is actually a compliment that they are interested enough to want to dig around in your thread a little more.  |
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Post by deadmans on Nov 18, 2009 18:31:01 GMT
prjb is an Operational Task Manager with LU's SSR Upgrades team and is directly responsible for ensuring S stock is designed to LU's requirements, as well as S stock's introduction into service with LU - so we know that what he says is fact. We don't know who you are and so it is quite fair & reasonable for members to ask questions to ensure they are not being led up the proverbial garden path. This is in no way a reflection of mis-trust; quoting the source merely ensures that members will view you as credible. Do you know all your users, by grade, name, company, and position?? No.  Neither do i find it necessary to go behind another users back, try to track him down, and check his posts. ( The user concerned knows what i mean ). All posts are done at face value, and all message boards, on every subject use that as a guideline. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE OR DISPROVE EVERY POST. Instead of all this you should of taken the thread under control, and returned it back to its starting TOPIC. rant over.  |
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Post by londonstuff on Nov 18, 2009 21:33:38 GMT
Latest: All S Stock is now going to be introduced on the entire SSL next week, from start of traffic on Monday. 'I don't need to justify my information to you or any other user.' deadmans: In reply #47, Colin was giving a real and justifiable statement, that prjb's facts can be verified, but yours, just like my 'information' in the preceding paragraph, can't, simply because people don't know your rank/position/ability to access first-hand information, etc. I don't think it's unreasonable, especially as this board gets read by more and more people and is treated with the respect it deserves (thanks both to the Mods and the users), for people to ask for more information on its source: it's not as though they're wanting to know your inside leg measurement. Think of it as a sign of quality and the fact that this board isn't just a vicious rumour mill.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2009 22:55:18 GMT
I dont feel that i have to justify my information to you or any other user. So, based on the fact that you could perceivably make it up as you go along without scrutiny, why on earth post it on a public discussion forum that by definition exposes you to the very thing you can't cope with? Quite the most ridiculous statement I've ever read on this or any other board.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2009 23:20:58 GMT
I post the occasional item on here and I don't feel (as per deadmans) the need to justify my sources of information. If I were to start saying person x who holds this position told me, or person y who does that, then you may find those friends/acquaintences no longer want to give you the gen if you quote them as sources. Not everyone wants to be 'outed' in that sense!
the proof is in the proverbial pudding
If an individuals post (or number of posts) turns out to be a complete floater, then learn to ignore them in the future!
every board has its hans christian fantasists
you learn over time who posts the reliable information!
people who post floaters tend to vanish as quickly as they came!
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Chris M
Global Moderator
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Post by Chris M on Nov 19, 2009 0:28:08 GMT
Indeed, but presently prjb's reputation as a provider of reliable information has, by virtue of both experience and voluntary disclosure of real-world identity, already been established. deadmans' reputation has had insufficient time (and thus opportunity) to become established as either good or bad, and as they've chosen not to reveal who they are in the real world (and there is no requirement they should) there is no other way than experience for their reputation to develop.
In the specific situation that started this discussion, you had essentially contradictory information being provided by two sources, deadmans and prjb. Given that it is not possible for both to be correct, others must decide who to believe - one person with an established positive reputation or one person with essentially no reputation.
Many people will naturally go with the person with the good reputation without question (this is why reputation is so important in business).
Other people will first try to establish the reliability of the specific bit of information in question, and one of these ways to do that is to determine the original source of the information. prjb's source is known and so there is no need to ask, whereas deadmans' isn't, which is why they were asked.
As an analogy, you ask two people when the new model of car will be launched. Person A says 12th January, Person B says 14th of April. After it has been established that they are talking about the same event, you need to decide who to believe. You know that Person A is the manager in charge of the team that designed the car, and you know they have a reputation for providing accurate information about how the design is progressing.
You don't know who person B is, so you ask them what their source is, if they say "I'm the person who is organising the launch" then you are much more likely to believe them than if they say "My mate works in the factory canteen and he overheard the designers chatting about it".
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,348
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Post by Colin on Nov 19, 2009 5:26:57 GMT
Do you know all your users, by grade, name, company, and position?? No. In terms of LU staff that members of this forum, the forum staff have identified around 98% actually. There are naturally two or three that we are unsure of, as they either don't post very often or are candid in what they give away, but we are absolutely extremely confident in our 98% figure. Neither do i find it necessary to go behind another users back, try to track him down, and check his posts. ( The user concerned knows what i mean ). Whilst I'm not sure what this has to do with the subject at hand, I would say that if you have a complaint about the behaviour of another member, please PM a member of the administration team and we will look into it. We cannot do anything about a problem if you don't tell us. All posts are done at face value, and all message boards, on every subject use that as a guideline. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE OR DISPROVE EVERY POST. There's no need to shout. All I was merely attempting to point out was what others have written in the few posts above this one.......in fact I'll say it again as my point is still just as valid now as it was when I originally posted it in reply #47 on the 9th November: We don't know who you are and so it is quite fair & reasonable for members to ask questions to ensure they are not being led up the proverbial garden path. This is in no way a reflection of mis-trust; quoting the source merely ensures that members will view you as credible. The bottom line is this - members are quite entitled to ask you to justify what you say, as they do generally see this forum as a reliable source of information. Your answer to the question came across as 'how dare they even ask'. You are welcome to adopt that attitude if you like, just don't be surprised if members don't believe everything you say. It's up to you but I wouldn't expect any sympathy for your argument from the forum staff. Whilst there was some thread drift, which is quite natural, we did come back onto the subject in your OP - the dates for withdrawal list - when the source of your list was questioned. So we should have acted when the thread was brought back on topic? I really do wonder sometimes why I took on the job of being on the forum's staff.... |
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Post by deadmans on Nov 20, 2009 18:44:59 GMT
I post the occasional item on here and I don't feel (as per deadmans) the need to justify my sources of information. If I were to start saying person x who holds this position told me, or person y who does that, then you may find those friends/acquaintences no longer want to give you the gen if you quote them as sources. Not everyone wants to be 'outed' in that sense! the proof is in the proverbial pudding If an individuals post (or number of posts) turns out to be a complete floater, then learn to ignore them in the future! every board has its hans christian fantasists you learn over time who posts the reliable information! people who post floaters tend to vanish as quickly as they came! Enough said. Post of the week. |
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Post by 1938 on Nov 23, 2009 2:11:00 GMT
I post the occasional item on here and I don't feel (as per deadmans) the need to justify my sources of information. If I were to start saying person x who holds this position told me, or person y who does that, then you may find those friends/acquaintences no longer want to give you the gen if you quote them as sources. Not everyone wants to be 'outed' in that sense! the proof is in the proverbial pudding If an individuals post (or number of posts) turns out to be a complete floater, then learn to ignore them in the future! every board has its hans christian fantasists you learn over time who posts the reliable information! people who post floaters tend to vanish as quickly as they came! Enough said. Post of the week. Deadmans - I take it that you believe the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. ie, prjb's post and yours. |
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