PM replacement

[programmes1]

I have been told that all the Programme machines Hammersmith-Ealing Common and Northfields & Boston Manor have now been taken out and replaced by Tubelines train following system can anyone confirm this?

[Tom]

I know the Acton Town PMs are now decommissioned, can't comment about anywhere else though.

[Deleted]

hammersmith is the only one left it was suppose to be this weekend but that didnt happen. its not just the picc line either the district machines at hammersmith s1 and s8 are also being done and also ealing broadway has already been completed. a request was made last week from our department to see if lul would pay for the pm replacement to continue east of hammersmith.

[railtechnician]

What will become of the PMs, time counters and all the associated potted 3000 type relays? I expect that most will go for scrap having given sterling service for close to 50 years. I trust that someone will preserve at least a few of them apart from the TfL Museum. In recent years far too much equipment from the electromechanical area has been lost to the scrap yards in the UK, not only from the railways, it seems such a waste.
I presume Acton's TD drum will soon be gone too if it hasn't already been decommissioned. There'll be a lot of empty space in the Acton East IMR once the PM kit is removed, it took up about half the floor space.
I understood that west of Acton Town had the train following system installed and working a year or two ago. The Northfields PMs were a little knackered but those at Boston Manor gave little trouble. The Acton PMs were life expired.

What of the three PM's at South Harrow, have they been decommissioned too?

I expect the slow speed scanning will be next on the hit list if it hasn't already gone.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2009 1:38:16 GMT railtechnician said:

I expect the slow speed scanning will be next on the hit list if it hasn't already gone.

It's still there. Someone said that that wasn't going to be replaced either. This obviously doesn't fit too well with this new equipment.

There are now a whole new set of "programme machine" "issues" as well.

[Deleted]

the t/d drum has gone from acton the replacement for the programme machines is not exactly small either it does take up alot of room

[railtechnician]

Nov 2, 2009 11:05:48 GMT @aetearlscourt said:

the t/d drum has gone from acton the replacement for the programme machines is not exactly small either it does take up alot of room

Presumably it had to be installed before the PMs and associated relays were removed. Removing the TD drum would've have created space in one corner, I assume that to be where the new kit would've been installed. Of course there was also some space available in the diagonally opposite corner too adjacent to the PMs.

I recall back in the days of parallel/trial running that Tubelines in its infancy and before we were TUPEd away from LT to become their workforce had great plans for the Acton area in particular in terms of total recabling if not total resignalling. I expect such a massive undertaking has been scaled back somewhat since originally propositioned and of course if the slow speed scanning goes I would expect the frames to be replaced by PLCs as well and that really couldn't be done cost effectively without ripping out Ealing Common and Hanger Lane Junction equipment too. Ealing Common probably has one of the oldest and most unique TD systems in terms of equipment in the area so I would not be surprised if a new IMR was on the cards there perhaps controlling Hanger Lane Junction as well. There was also the question of splitting the District and Picc signalling at one point though that is perhaps an exercise at a higher level altogether which might need to involve new track layout too. In this regard the District side of Ealing Broadway is something of a backwater although I suppose that one day it might be more directly connected to the rest of the District Line.

[Tom]

Nov 2, 2009 4:53:23 GMT @monkfish said:

Nov 2, 2009 1:38:16 GMT railtechnician said:

I expect the slow speed scanning will be next on the hit list if it hasn't already gone.

It's still there.

Slow speed scanning is ok generally - the problem is normally the cable (and what to do when all the cores are used).

Walthamstow - Cobourg Street is now done via RTUs instead of Slow Speed Scan, but that was dictated by the cable condition more than anything else.

[railtechnician]

Nov 2, 2009 22:40:13 GMT Tom said:

Nov 2, 2009 4:53:23 GMT @monkfish said:

It's still there.

Slow speed scanning is ok generally - the problem is normally the cable (and what to do when all the cores are used).

Walthamstow - Cobourg Street is now done via RTUs instead of Slow Speed Scan, but that was dictated by the cable condition more than anything else.

Yep I always thought slow speed scanning was a good basic system, however, AIUI plans to upgrade Earls Court control room were reliant on the replacement of both PMs and the slow speed scanning system. The problem of the costs of such a project escalating to hundreds of £millions also being made on the premise that the Picc signalling would have to be split from the District and that that might only be done by new scanning systems.

In all honesty I would've thought scanning would be of minimal cost in the modern age with fibre optic cables and the LUL intranet. Is there any longer an argument for totally dedicated comms between control room and remote signalling sites? I can't see any reason why the standard PCM comms transmission systems, extant and well proven, might not be further expanded to cater for signal control just as they were for UTS. There is no doubt that convergence seems to be the modern way in many industries including network rail where comms and signalling have been integrated for many years. Of course there have been elements of the non-safety side of LU signal control routed via the comms infrastucture for many years.

As for the Vic line I had thought that it was getting its own North and South looped data transmission systems from Cobourg St, something along the lines of the 565Mb data transmission systems on the Central line although it was never clear exactly how it would be utilised though I have always suspected that if installed it would carry comms and data for multiple disciplines. Am I correct in assuming that the RTUs use the transmission system, in fact was it installed?

[abe]

Could someone provide more details of slow speed scanning please, or give a link if there's a web page with info. I've heard the term before, but realized that it doesn't mean much to me!

Thanks

[mrfs42]

If you want to wait until to-morrow afternoon I could scan some documents I've got about it. I'll turn them into a .pdf an email them you off-list. It is a technical report from about the time of installation.

[Deleted]

I don't understand why if the PMs have been replaced with computers; the timing still goes and the "PMs" fail to step, or step 60 seconds after a train has gone!

[Deleted]

its physically only the machine that has been replaced the rest of the circuits still exsist tubelines as part of the contract respond to the 1st line call on a PM fault in the affected areas but if its proved to be another circuit then we will step in as normal we are not allowed to touch the new equipment not even to step it on or cancel a train off

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2009 21:19:49 GMT @aetearlscourt said:

its physically only the machine that has been replaced the rest of the circuits still exsist tubelines as part of the contract respond to the 1st line call on a PM fault in the affected areas but if its proved to be another circuit then we will step in as normal we are not allowed to touch the new equipment not even to step it on or cancel a train off

So are TLL now back to first line fault response? From April 1 Ealing Bdy to Hammersmith faults were to be given to the SSL Fault Report Centre as the contract with TLL had been cancelled.
I know that TLL have the contract to bring this god awful train following system in.

[Deleted]

only on PM faults which are due to there new equipment we do any other faults and it was only ealing broadway & south ealing - chiswick park where they had control not hammersmith we have always done the 4 track since 1998 when hammersmith t/o depot shut when they moved into the control room and we moved out