EF270b

[Colin]

EF270b is the inner home signal at South Kensington on the westbound District (and Circle I suppose ;D ;D).

Now I wonder whether my powers of observation are good or bad, as I noticed a change with this signal today.....



The Blue & White edging........when was that added? why was it added? (It's not a multi SPAD signal AFAIK) and why haven't us drivers been told anything about it??

[mrfs42]

Well - as you're obviously aware the blue-and-white frills are there to say to the T/Op - 'Oi matey, this signal must not be passed - lots of people have done it before, don't join that club' - could it be tied in with ∆HP being 290' in advance of EF 270^B - perhaps this is some new form of SPAD mitigation based on statistical analysis? My guess (after a bit of tinkering) is that the overlap is compromised; possibly slightly short. <shrug>

The flashes have been put on to say 'things have changed slightly since this was installed - it's not dangerous, but the distance is now a bit short - be careful'?

[happybunny]

I too was miffed... I don't know of anyone SPADding that signal , not recently anyway... you would have thought something like West Ken EB starter, or EC10 (multi-spad, spadded again just the other day) would have received more urgent attention.

[citysig]

The key thing here obviously is that you noticed it. And that's the idea. Therefore if you noticed it on a signal that has a low SPAD record, and this was a trial of such markings, then hopefully if it is adopted to a high SPAD signal, you will notice it there too. Of course if they start adding it to all signals, they will all go back to looking the same, and everything will be as it is now.

[mrfs42]

Dec 9, 2009 22:45:16 GMT @citysig said:

Therefore if you noticed it on a signal that has a low SPAD record, and this was a trial of such markings, then hopefully if it is adopted to a high SPAD signal, you will notice it there too.

Are you guessing or do you know? I think it is a pretty poor show that something has been introduced to the system and there is not one jot of briefing/communication to the T/Ops involved.

This might be symptomatic of a greater malaise; but hey - who am I to comment!

Aside from my interest in the UbahN I have an interest in how information is disseminated - so if you in your ivory tower know its a trial - what's gone wrong with the communication structures? Obviously if you are surmising, then all bets are off.

[Deleted]

I've had to stop at that stick before. Comes as a bit of a shock to find it on when you come round the corner. Never heard of anyone spadding it though.

[citysig]

Dec 10, 2009 0:10:38 GMT mrfs42 said:

Are you guessing or do you know? I think it is a pretty poor show that something has been introduced to the system and there is not one jot of briefing/communication to the T/Ops involved.

Just guessing. Maybe such a trial should be communicated, but look at it from the other angle. If on day one everyone knew it would be there, then the actual idea of getting the signal "noticed" would be lost. And if this was a trial to see how many people "noticed" the signal, then at least as far as the un-official feedback on here suggests, it has worked.

The aspects of the signal or the way in which they work have not been altered.

A zebra crossing near me recently had some changes done to make it a little safer and more visible. But the local council did not leaflet drop everyone in a 10-mile radius to tell us about it. The changes were obvious, they served their purpose, so job done.

If someone gave me a clearer timetable to read, a sharper pencil to write with and nice paper to write on, the last thing I would need is a letter telling me about it.

This state is nanny-ish enough. Surely small changes which work, do not always have to be communicated to the masses, when the masses are intelligent enough to notice and appreciate the changes for themselves.

[mrfs42]

Dec 10, 2009 9:52:59 GMT @citysig said:

This state is nanny-ish enough. Surely small changes which work, do not always have to be communicated to the masses, when the masses are intelligent enough to notice and appreciate the changes for themselves.

Granted - however by that yardstick why bother telling T/Ops which TCs have changed over to the Frauscher units? The functionality is unchanged, but the TCs look slightly different.

So, as EF270^B now also looks slightly different, I would expect some form of notice to T/Ops: even if it read in rather bland and anodyne terms - "work is being undertaken on the signal heads between Gloucester Road and Sloane Square."

Having had some experience in introducing new operating concepts, the cardinal rule is that you cannot be sneaky about anything - these pesky Drivers will pick up on anything they've not been told about. ;D ;D ;D

[Colin]

Whilst I take your point MetControl, mrfs also makes a good argument.

Why did we need to be told about the signals going over to LED's? after all they still show Red & Green as they have always done.

Every other SPAD mitigation measure (I'm assuming that's what the Blue & White edging is about), when implemented, is communicated; moving of signals, addition of back plates, installation of co-actors, count down markers, TSR's & PSR's, removal of signals, etc, etc. We are usually always told in advance.

There may well be a secret plan to see how it works in terms of whether drivers notice the change, but it just seems a bit of a cheek if that's the case. The vast majority of drivers are professional and don't deserve this sort of 'need to know only' type treatment. If my working environment has improved, and there is a tool being introduced which is intended to make my job better, I'd much rather management were up front about it.

Things are bad enough at the moment with the pressure that's being exerted over menial things like 30 second PA's - if the company devoted as much time & money to dealing with the root cause of SPADs as they do to PA's.....well we really would be getting somewhere.

[/accidental rant]

[railtechnician]

Dec 10, 2009 13:47:48 GMT Colin said:

Whilst I take your point MetControl, mrfs also makes a good argument.

Why did we need to be told about the signals going over to LED's? after all they still show Red & Green as they have always done.

Every other SPAD mitigation measure (I'm assuming that's what the Blue & White edging is about), when implemented, is communicated; moving of signals, addition of back plates, installation of co-actors, count down markers, TSR's & PSR's, removal of signals, etc, etc. We are usually always told in advance.

There may well be a secret plan to see how it works in terms of whether drivers notice the change, but it just seems a bit of a cheek if that's the case. The vast majority of drivers are professional and don't deserve this sort of 'need to know only' type treatment. If my working environment has improved, and there is a tool being introduced which is intended to make my job better, I'd much rather management were up front about it.

Things are bad enough at the moment with the pressure that's being exerted over menial things like 30 second PA's - if the company devoted as much time & money to dealing with the root cause of SPADs as they do to PA's.....well we really would be getting somewhere.

[/accidental rant]

Colin,

As far as LED signals is concerned they were simply not the same as incandescent bulbs in terms of light output, focus and sighting when they were first introduced. I am sure that feedback was necessary from those who needed to see them, as a signal lineman my view of a signal would not be that of a motorman. I can recall some of the first LED signals on the PICC being reported as being DIM for instance even though they looked fine from a sighting point of view when we installed them.

Keeping people informed should be a balancing act, too much information is often as bad as too little and arguments can be made for both. Which is best is rather subjective as depends somewhat upon the situation.

It seems quite obvious from this thread that the newly adorned display board at EF270b has drawn attention and comment but I can't help wondering, as no-one has apparently been informed of this new artwork, whether anyone has thought to report that the display board has been vandalised, there being no information to indicate that is has been legitimately altered!

As to your comment about menial PAs I choose to enclose such things in an envelope marked "managers guaranteeing themselves useful" ! Some may think I am anti-management but that is not so, what I am against is management for management's sake, in other words micromanagement. Staff are paid decent wages/salaries to do their job and they should be allowed to get on with it, while managers are paid to make decisions and that's what they should be doing rather than buck passing which seems to be very much a trend these days.

[citysig]

Dec 10, 2009 13:47:48 GMT Colin said:

There may well be a secret plan to see how it works in terms of whether drivers notice the change, but it just seems a bit of a cheek if that's the case. The vast majority of drivers are professional and don't deserve this sort of 'need to know only' type treatment. If my working environment has improved, and there is a tool being introduced which is intended to make my job better, I'd much rather management were up front about it.

Good point yourself, and fully understand the accidental rant, but pressure of the sort drivers get is rife everywhere as you may know. I could list some examples (there are lots in my job) but that would be unhelpful here.

However, and remember I was just guessing as I said, sometimes small alterations such as this may not get the "testing" and "recognition" they were trying to achieve if everyone knows about it beforehand. Within this thread we have already established this signal is a low SPAD signal, but also can be difficult to see. A test on this "innocent" signal may lead to alterations on a high-risk signal which are communicated.

Nothing has moved. The signal works the same. LEDs, TSRs, removal or re-positioning of signals, anything like that should always been communicated, as they potentially alter the way in which things work.

I hear your case, but also agree with railtechnician who reminds us that the information game is a balancing act, and if this was merely that the gantry had been painted pink, then should you all be told?

There is also the other point railtechnician makes. That the signal has been vandalised. When I opened the thread and saw the picture, my first thought was that it had been adorned with fairy lights for Christmas ;D

[rincew1nd]

Dec 10, 2009 21:05:57 GMT @citysig said:

When I opened the thread and saw the picture, my first thought was that it had been adorned with fairy lights for Christmas ;D

I'm glad I'm not the only one; it's preeeety!

[Deleted]

One possibility that has been overlooked is to do with the preamble on the inside cover of the TC entitled "Traffic Circular Paragraphs Information". After noting the exacting requirements that MUST be followed to ensure insertion, it is always possible that it failed to pass muster and therefore got lost as a result.............

[Deleted]

Is this the first such LT signal to be so fitted?

The 'big' railway tried this many years ago and found that the edging became a distraction with the driver concentrating on it rather than the signal aspect itself

Many, if not all, were removed.

[happybunny]

Dec 11, 2009 19:57:54 GMT @smeswdu said:

Is this the first such LT signal to be so fitted?

The 'big' railway tried this many years ago and found that the edging became a distraction with the driver concentrating on it rather than the signal aspect itself

Many, if not all, were removed.

Some on the Jubilee line, mainly in the Canning Town/West Ham areas were fitted with this 'edging' whilst I was there...

Of course the main reason those signals were spadded were that they are tube tunnel standard signal's on open section tracks.

[Deleted]

Signals with blue and white around the edging may also be seen at Golders Green - the two northbound platform 'draw-up' signals come to mind (G340 and G350) and the southbound advenced starting signal (G6).

There may well indeed be others.

[Tom]

Dec 10, 2009 13:47:48 GMT Colin said:

Whilst I take your point MetControl, mrfs also makes a good argument.

Why did we need to be told about the signals going over to LED's? after all they still show Red & Green as they have always done.

The section of the traffic circular related to equipment changes isn't just for the benefit of Train Operators. It has to be all things to all people.

The details about LEDs are important for staff such as Technical Officers so they are aware of which areas should have LEDs and which shouldn't.

[citysig]

Dec 11, 2009 20:02:53 GMT @happybunny said:

Some on the Jubilee line, mainly in the Canning Town/West Ham areas were fitted with this 'edging' whilst I was there...

Of course the main reason those signals were spadded were that they are tube tunnel standard signal's on open section tracks.

Dec 11, 2009 21:20:33 GMT @reganorak said:

Signals with blue and white around the edging may also be seen at Golders Green - the two northbound platform 'draw-up' signals come to mind (G340 and G350) and the southbound advenced starting signal (G6).

There may well indeed be others.

The fact these other examples exist means this is not a graffiti job, but an official alteration, plus it would appear that the reason is an anti-SPAD measure. All that remains to be solved is how much information was passed regarding the change for the other locations.

[rincew1nd]

Dec 11, 2009 21:20:33 GMT @reganorak said:

Signals with blue and white around the edging may also be seen at Golders Green - the two northbound platform 'draw-up' signals come to mind (G340 and G350) and the southbound advenced starting signal (G6).

There may well indeed be others.

Indeed, I noticed yesterday that the reversing siding exit signal at Harrow & Wealdstone (a shunt type) had a backing board with the same dashed border. Unfortunately as I was looking out the window of a Pendolino at full tilt I couldn't grab a picture.

[Tom]

That would be WS307. It was a genuine example of where something more was needed to draw Train operator's attention to the signal (unlike the example previously discussed) as it was one of the top ten SPADed signals on Network Rail, and all the SPADs were by London Underground staff!

In addition to the edging it was also relocated off the ground a number of years ago to further improve the sighting of the signal.

[rincew1nd]

Do you have any info on the type of SPAD happening here?

Were train op's entering the cab, setting it up and going, or were they looking at a different signal?

[Tom]

The former I believe. Because it was a Network Rail signal we didn't get much data on it.

[rincew1nd]

TVM

[londonstuff]

Sorry for the thread bump, just spotted a photo yesterday I took in the summer, from a train heading southbound at Golders Green, (which if my eyesight is any good is signal G6) this too has the edging on it:



Have there been any further additions of these types of edging?

If this is too much of a bump for the powers that be, please delete me

[Phil]

Jan 17, 2010 16:47:23 GMT londonstuff said:

If this is too much of a bump for the powers that be, please delete me

Wouldn't dream of it - nice pic!

[Deleted]

It is indeed advance starting signal G6 - a much SPAD'ed signal. The two platform draw-up signals at Golders Green northbound (G340 and G350) also have blue and white edging for the same reason.