Signal 'systems' failure Aldgate

[mrfs42]

Could it be as simple as the site computer failing?

I see the _subStandard has got its obligatory bit of tube-bashing in. What happened to the much-vaunted 'improvement of attitude'?

[cso]

If it's at Aldgate, and affected H&C and Circle line, why is the Met still (allegedly) running to Aldgate? Usually these things end up delaying it too, or at least taht's the impression I get?

[rayb]

When last I heard, the Circle was running Mansion House to Ed.Rd. clockwise, so nothing on the North side. Similarly, the H&C was part suspended Moorgate-Barking.

I suspect that the Met could run to Aldgate because it would be the only service there and in any event, has its own platforms. BBC London were reporting that things should be back to normal by "lunchtime".

[Deleted]

Apr 6, 2010 14:12:09 GMT @rayb said:

BBC London were reporting that things should be back to normal by "lunchtime".

Well it's anything but! T-cup unchanged. Hammersmith & City line suspended between Liverpool Street and Barking. Met's now going round at Moorgate!

[Deleted]

I see from the Tfl travel update page that all the SSR lines will be closing early in the affected area tonight at 2330.

www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/livetravelnews/realtime/tube/later.html

Must be some fairly major work taking place tonight.

[Deleted]

Sounds like it might be connected with next weeks block for points renewal at Aldgate East. Both connections are to be renewed and the eastbound spring points will be machine operated. This may have been in connection with the IMR alterations.

Edit: Misread TC should have been last weekends work! Dislexia rules KO.

[Deleted]

I heard a power surge fried a number of computers in the area.

[Dstock7080]

Apr 6, 2010 18:57:18 GMT @lnwrelectric said:

Sounds like it might be connected with next weeks block for points renewal at Aldgate East. Both connections are to be renewed and the eastbound spring points will be machine operated. This may have been in connection with the IMR alterations.

I thought this was the work done over the Easter 4-day shut-down?

[citysig]

So, for not the first day in the past week or so, I found myself running less than 100% of our service, and for the second time in the same period, running a "special" timetable - which in itself is a fairly rare event on the H&C and Met (things have to get pretty bad for that to happen).

The problems today were caused by essentially 2 separate issues in the Aldgate area.

Problem 1. Over the Easter weekend, there was engineering work taking place in the Aldgate/Aldgate East area, to replace the last set of "spring-toggle" points at Aldgate East with power-operated points. Unfortunately, a major part of the new points failed and could not be fixed without a several-hour service suspension. So the decision was taken early this morning to secure the points out of use, and to run only the District service through Aldgate East. This is what initially caused the suspension of the H&C east of Moorgate.

Problem 2. Sometime over the weekend, something somewhere went wrong. It is not known as yet exactly what went wrong, but it appears a higher than recommended voltage was passed through the computer signalling hardware for the Aldgate area, basically frying several of the computer input/output cards, and causing a fair bit of damage to the entire computer interface for the area.

The services offered were as mentioned already. We had 9 trains running Hammersmith-Moorgate, 4 running Edgware Road-Mansion House via Victoria, and a full Met service. The Met was run into Aldgate by basically manually controlling Aldgate using the IMR (Interlocking Machine Room - the levers that are usually controlled by the computer).

It was not possible to also run a full Circle service (or additional H&C reversing services) simply due to the nature and workload of working Aldgate in such a manner. Trust me, it may look simple to operate an ordinary lever frame for the area, but other complications make it far less than easy.

The lower-frequency-than-desired Edgware Road-Mansion House service was as a result of train operator availability and also to ensure the reversing at Mansion House did not impede on the District Line service - who were running a full service throughout today.

By around 2000hrs this evening, Aldgate was back working under computer control - although there is still a lot of testing to be carried out to ensure that future failures do not occur. The early shutdown is planned to hopefully allow enough overnight down-time to fix any computer problems, and will also hopefully allow time to rectify problems on the points at Aldgate East.

At the very least tomorrow, it is hoped the Met can run as normal, with a combined Hammersmith & Circle service operating Hammersmith->Circle Line->Edgware Road and return - that's the normal service but without trains heading east of Liverpool Street towards Whitechapel and Barking. Of course, with the additional work time, we may also be able to use the points at Aldgate East and will be able to run a full Met, H&C and Circle service.

[Deleted]

Sounds like you had a busy day!

[Deleted]

Apr 6, 2010 21:25:18 GMT @citysig said:

Problem 2. Sometime over the weekend, something somewhere went wrong. It is not known as yet exactly what went wrong, but it appears a higher than recommended voltage was passed through the computer signalling hardware for the Aldgate area, basically frying several of the computer input/output cards, and causing a fair bit of damage to the entire computer interface for the area.

The services offered were as mentioned already. We had 9 trains running Hammersmith-Moorgate, 4 running Edgware Road-Mansion House via Victoria, and a full Met service. The Met was run into Aldgate by basically manually controlling Aldgate using the IMR (Interlocking Machine Room - the levers that are usually controlled by the computer).

You have to like the presence of literal air gaps

For anyone curious about what a 'V' frame looks like (this photo is of Parsons Green west IMR):

aetearlscourt.fotopic.net/p15538933.html

And what was originally available at Aldgate prior to the modernisation:

www.anorakheaven.com/photos/ald01.jpg

It can be seen above that the physical motion needed to rotate the shaft-based levers in a 'V' frame is substantially less efficient than the motion for an 'N', and this may be one of the reasons why it was decided that the AET, SOM or signaller was only tasked with rotating the levers for the signals and points in and out of the bays at Aldgate.

Apr 6, 2010 21:25:18 GMT @citysig said:

By around 2000hrs this evening, Aldgate was back working under computer control - although there is still a lot of testing to be carried out to ensure that future failures do not occur. The early shutdown is planned to hopefully allow enough overnight down-time to fix any computer problems, and will also hopefully allow time to rectify problems on the points at Aldgate East.

I wonder how many spares are stocked for the computer interfaces at locations like these, seeing as how this isn't particularly new technology...

[Deleted]

The T-cup is running with severe delays, and has been since 06:30 apparently, due to signalling problems at Aldgate. Is this because things are still being "tested", or is it something totally unrelated to anything that happened yesterday?

[citysig]

Apr 7, 2010 0:29:43 GMT @theonekea said:

I wonder how many spares are stocked for the computer interfaces at locations like these, seeing as how this isn't particularly new technology...

We were wondering the same thing, and, as the Bakerloo runs on a similar system, we were keeping an eye on their service status in case something was "borrowed" from there ;D

[citysig]

Apr 7, 2010 6:03:33 GMT @ltmuseumguy said:

The T-cup is running with severe delays, and has been since 06:30 apparently, due to signalling problems at Aldgate. Is this because things are still being "tested", or is it something totally unrelated to anything that happened yesterday?

My sources tell me it all started off normally, but unfortunately a couple of signalling failures have occured in the Aldgate area. It could be that the odd bit of electrical damage undetected yesterday, is now rearing its head. With scenarios such as the this, the problem you find is whilst one card or circuit burns out straight away and the failure is found, other cards or circuits may have been weakened and will hold up for a while longer before expiring.

I should add that none of the circuits affected are related to the safety of the area. The interlocking is fully intact and should a failure occur, it will fail safe (i.e. red aspects displayed). The problem is on the computer-controlled side of things, and even if the computer "wanted to" clear a conflicting route, it cannot due to the mechanical interlocking on the frame itself.

[Tom]

Apr 7, 2010 7:00:38 GMT @citysig said:

Apr 7, 2010 0:29:43 GMT @theonekea said:

I wonder how many spares are stocked for the computer interfaces at locations like these, seeing as how this isn't particularly new technology...

We were wondering the same thing, and, as the Bakerloo runs on a similar system, we were keeping an eye on their service status in case something was "borrowed" from there ;D

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Bakerloo line spares have been raided, knowing who is likely to have been involved in the repairs...

[citysig]

Apr 7, 2010 7:12:20 GMT Tom said:

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Bakerloo line spares have been raided, knowing who is likely to have been involved in the repairs...

Indeed he was very heavily involved

[Deleted]

BBC London and others have started to use this to slate the T-cup again. But, answer me this please, with the Circle line, we would have had the whole line completely shut down for 2 days, which is a situation that has been avoided, and the closure has been isolated?

[Deleted]

Apr 7, 2010 12:43:43 GMT @ltmuseumguy said:

BBC London and others have started to use this to slate the T-cup again. But, answer me this please, with the Circle line, we would have had the whole line completely shut down for 2 days, which is a situation that has been avoided, and the closure has been isolated?

Hmm... AIUI (from what has been said above) the effect (partial suspension) on the Circle line was down to a decision to use limited capacity at Aldgate for reversing Mets, rather than running Circles through. It seems to me that whether the Circle was a circle or tea cup did not affect the service that could be provided given that decision and the circumstances.

[Deleted]

Apr 7, 2010 14:39:38 GMT etr220 said:

Apr 7, 2010 12:43:43 GMT @ltmuseumguy said:

BBC London and others have started to use this to slate the T-cup again. But, answer me this please, with the Circle line, we would have had the whole line completely shut down for 2 days, which is a situation that has been avoided, and the closure has been isolated?

Hmm... AIUI (from what has been said above) the effect (partial suspension) on the Circle line was down to a decision to use limited capacity at Aldgate for reversing Mets, rather than running Circles through. It seems to me that whether the Circle was a circle or tea cup did not affect the service that could be provided given that decision and the circumstances.

There was also a service until 2000 hours from Manson House to Edgware Road

[citysig]

Apr 7, 2010 12:43:43 GMT @ltmuseumguy said:

BBC London and others have started to use this to slate the T-cup again. But, answer me this please, with the Circle line, we would have had the whole line completely shut down for 2 days, which is a situation that has been avoided, and the closure has been isolated?

Of course, as you point out and, as many of us know by now, those un-educated media types will always clutch at straws and blame the nearest thing that they think their readers can relate to. So after weeks/months of going on about how horrible the T-Cup will be/is, they think that their readers have such limited intelligence that the only part of the Circle Line's offerings they can relate to is said T-Cup service.

As has been suggested above, whichever service we were meant to be running if everything was working, in the end we offered the best reliable* service we could, given what we had to work with.

If the media want to somehow link the Aldgate problems to the T-cup timetable, then the problem of limited intelligence reporters and researchers is their problem alone.

*Reliable in this case meant that if you were going to advertise a service then at the very least make it worth running, and make it a reasonable choice for those that turned up to use it. We could have run 2 all-the-way-round Circles on each side, and run them at 30-minute intervals, but that is hardly a service worth offering.

[Deleted]

Apr 7, 2010 12:43:43 GMT @ltmuseumguy said:

BBC London and others have started to use this to slate the T-cup again. ?

Well when was the last time it functioned in reasonable approximation to the public timetable ? Some day back in March I believe. It's no wonder that the public are getting completely hacked off with what is happening there.

[citysig]

Apr 8, 2010 10:11:12 GMT @diana said:

Well when was the last time it functioned in reasonable approximation to the public timetable ? Some day back in March I believe. It's no wonder that the public are getting completely hacked off with what is happening there.

Last week was bad, but, despite the several occasions when we didn't operate to time, there were several occasions where the timetable did operate. Looking back over your comments in past threads - one or two of which I have been involved in - I have to ask if you are part of the media-type people who I refer to in my previous post. You do seem more ready than most to knock us, and this is even after the majority of people who knock us have decided the explanation they have received is sufficient.

Nobody has denied it has been a rough week or so, but your comment of "Some day in March" is interesting. I make it April 7th. Take away the Easter Bank Holiday weekend, and I make March just 4 normal Monday-Friday days ago. If we were at the end of April, and your statement was still true, then I think we would need to look at our operation of the timetable. But as it stands, that is a media-type comment.

[Deleted]

Apr 8, 2010 10:33:53 GMT @citysig said:

Apr 8, 2010 10:11:12 GMT @diana said:

Take away the Easter Bank Holiday weekend, and I make March just 4 normal Monday-Friday days ago.

Why do we have to omit the four days of the Easter weekend (when, for those who do not know, there was no Circle service provided as well)? This desire to just look at Monday-Friday peak hours, and to hell with anyone who wants to use the public transport system outside such times, is yet another example of how TfL, LUL, and all the other parts of the organisation have just taken leave of reality.

I regularly travel on the Metro in St Petersburg in Russia. They carry two-thirds of the passengers London does on just four lines. They have been starved of investment for the 20 years since the end of socialist times, both for trains and infrastructure. The entire system runs in single-track tube tunnels. Not once have they ever been closed, weekdays, weekends, or whatever. Deviations from standard intervals (which can be readily seen as all the stations have headway clocks) are measurable in seconds. The only times on these Russian trips that problems are encountered have been on returning home to Heathrow and finding that, yet again, the Piccadilly is closed all weekend.

[Colin]

Apr 8, 2010 15:34:48 GMT @diana said:

I regularly travel on the Metro in St Petersburg in Russia. They carry two-thirds of the passengers London does on just four lines. They have been starved of investment for the 20 years since the end of socialist times, both for trains and infrastructure. The entire system runs in single-track tube tunnels. Not once have they ever been closed, weekdays, weekends, or whatever.

Well they won't have been closed if they've been starved of investment - exactly the same as LU was never closed cos it too was starved of investment.

Funny that.

I'll leave the rest for someone else to answer.

[citysig]

Apr 8, 2010 15:46:53 GMT Colin said:

Well they won't have been closed if they've been starved of investment - exactly the same as LU was never closed cos it too was starved of investment.

Funny that.

I'll leave the rest for someone else to answer.

You beat me to that same answer Colin.

Diana, I chose not to count the 4-day Easter Weekend, because, as far back as the start of the year, if you visited the Tfl website, the suspension of the Circle Line for the Easter Weekend was advertised.

It has been mentioned many times how weekends suffer, but unfortunately, as the old saying goes "To make an omlette, you have to break eggs." Although of course weekends are prime for tourism and the like, we simply carry less people and therefore inconvenience the minority. The work has to be done sometime.

That said, newer initiatives are being tried - probably just as bitter on the tongue for media types. This summer there will be a large multi-week blockade of the Hammersmith branch so that a huge chunk of work can be done in one hit, rather than spread over several months of weekends. There will also be future closures of this type to get the pain out of the way in one go.

If you do have any better ideas for how the investment programme can be carried out then please leave them here. I am by no means the senior grade visiting here. Many people much higher up the chain look into this place, and who knows, one of your suggestions could be taken on board.

Other than that, I feel I would be wasting my breath defending Tfl/LUL's actions any further. Staff have to get to work at weekends too, and it can be just as frustrating to us - but at least we appreciate that there will be benefits in the long run.

I feel I may be trying to preach to the media or the media converted (there appears to be no comment with regard to my suspicions). Therefore, rather than listening to reason and honesty, your latest copy of the free papers will be available tomorrow (but wasn't over the Easter Weekend and won't be come the weekend - sound familiar?)

[norbitonflyer]

I must have hit the beginning of these problems as I arrived at Paddington (from Wimbledon) about 1130 on Tuesday (sorry to bring this up rather late, but I was heading out of town).

There still seem to be many people at Padd who don't take an Edgware Road train in the hope that soemthing bgetter will come along, and sure enough, hardly anyone got on the train I'd just left. So an announcement was made to tell people to take the first train and change at ERD.

The next train came in before I'd left the platform. Despite "Edgware Road" on the platform DMI, the train said "Moorgate" on the front! Someone was clearly not being kept in the loop!

[citysig]

Apr 9, 2010 19:49:06 GMT norbitonflyer said:

The next train came in before I'd left the platform. Despite "Edgware Road" on the platform DMI, the train said "Moorgate" on the front! Someone was clearly not being kept in the loop!

Not true. In the first instance, Earl's Court control room (from where the train was last signalled) cannot put up a Moorgate description. Add to this the fact that the decision to send the train through to Moorgate was probably made after the train left High Street Ken (so even if Earl's Court could send the right TD, it would have left the last point where such a change could be made.)

It has been mentioned before, and I will mention it again. All trains at Paddington Eastbound (Circle Line Station) will generally terminate at Edgware Road and customers should board the first train and change there. But, on a typical day, there will be a handful of exceptions. During service disruption, this handful may well increase to a bucket-load ;D

[norbitonflyer]

Apr 9, 2010 22:08:23 GMT @citysig said:

Apr 9, 2010 19:49:06 GMT norbitonflyer said:

The next train came in before I'd left the platform. Despite "Edgware Road" on the platform DMI, the train said "Moorgate" on the front! Someone was clearly not being kept in the loop!

Not true. In the first instance, Earl's Court control room (from where the train was last signalled) cannot put up a Moorgate description. Add to this the fact that the decision to send the train through to Moorgate was probably made after the train left High Street Ken (so even if Earl's Court could send the right TD, it would have left the last point where such a change could be made.)

All of this explains the DMI - but the someone out of the loop that I meant was the person who made the announcement (it didn't sound like a recording) a minute or less before the train arrived to contradict him. Did the announcer not know it was coming? If it's possible to tell the driver of a moving train that he's going to Moorgate instead of Edgware Road, surely it's not impossible to tell the staff on the ground?

[citysig]

Apr 9, 2010 23:22:52 GMT norbitonflyer said:

All of this explains the DMI - but the someone out of the loop that I meant was the person who made the announcement (it didn't sound like a recording) a minute or less before the train arrived to contradict him. Did the announcer not know it was coming? If it's possible to tell the driver of a moving train that he's going to Moorgate instead of Edgware Road, surely it's not impossible to tell the staff on the ground?

The announcer in the first instance could well have been making a "general announcement" and, having maybe taken a quick glance at the DMI via the CCTV, continued to announce all trains as being "Edgware Road."

Now. Maybe somebody at the station was told of the train continuing on to Moorgate. The information may have reached the person doing the announcements in time for them to update the announcement.

Then comes a judgement call. Does the announcer, who has been telling people to get on the Edgware Road trains and change, now suddenly tell everyone that the next train will go all the way to Moorgate - no doubt instilling confusion to a large part of the awaiting crowd. Do they announce that the DMI is wrong, and to effectively ignore it and board the next train as it is going to Moorgate? What then? Loads of people who then stay at Paddington in the hope that their destination will be catered for next?

There is no right or wrong answer. There is no way of knowing how early on the station got the information. There is also no way of knowing just how many people spotted the contradiction in destinations. Hopefully, at some point en-route to Edgware Road, an on-train announcement will have been made.

[Colin]

Apr 9, 2010 23:22:52 GMT norbitonflyer said:

If it's possible to tell the driver of a moving train that he's going to Moorgate instead of Edgware Road, surely it's not impossible to tell the staff on the ground?

Stations are not always the first priority in the information loop - as MetControl says, there may not have been time to get the message to the right person - but it can also depend on the reasons for the required change of destination; was it planned or was it in response to an unplanned event. Does that unplanned event require other actions that take priority over passing information along?

And whilst the information could be passed to a station, something else on another part of the line may suddenly take priority.

So sometimes station staff will be in the loop and sometimes they won't, for various reasons, at any given time.