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Post by londonse on Jun 25, 2010 9:39:41 GMT
This will sound a bit long winded but after doing some research on the subject what do those on here think about both signal and controller functions being in the same room. I know that it is some years off for this to occur. In the 1960s there was a plan to have 4 control rooms for the entire system (IRSE paper by E Wager 1968)
1. All lines would have had program machines, the rooms would have been circular only 2 were ever built.
2. The controllers and signallers both being situated in front of the diagram (Earls Court & Cobourg St) I don't think there was space at Baker St for a circular building so the offices were used but the controller and signallers being in a separate room which cant help, the Central would have been at Oxford Circus where there is definitely no room.
Yes I know that for years controllers and signallers have been in separate locations some still are. Originally all the controllers were at Leicester Sq above the station and moved to other locations in the 1960s/70s when in the early 1990s they were all proposed to move to Baker St to be in offices again without the signallers.
If Robert Dell had not been the signal engineer how different would signalling control have been?
Paul
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Jun 25, 2010 9:55:54 GMT
This will sound a bit long winded but after doing some research on the subject what do those on here think about both signal and controller functions being in the same room. I know that it is some years off for this to occur. In the 1960s there was a plan to have 4 control rooms for the entire system (IRSE paper by E Wager 1968) 1. All lines would have had program machines, the rooms would have been circular only 2 were ever built. 2. The controllers and signallers both being situated in front of the diagram (Earls Court & Cobourg St) I don't think there was space at Baker St for a circular building so the offices were used but the controller and signallers being in a separate room which cant help, the Central would have been at Oxford Circus where there is definitely no room. Yes I know that for years controllers and signallers have been in separate locations some still are. Originally all the controllers were at Leicester Sq above the station and moved to other locations in the 1960s/70s when in the early 1990s they were all proposed to move to Baker St to be in offices again without the signallers. If Robert Dell had not been the signal engineer how different would signalling control have been? Paul Well if Robert Dell had not been the Signal Engineer things would have been much better in that the Underground signalling would have been upgraded a lot quicker and we would not have stuck with programe machines which use old electronics which can only be got off ebay ;D
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Post by harlesden on Jun 25, 2010 11:05:28 GMT
Brand new purpose built building - one floor for each line with most of each floor taken up by an immense room divided into two sections, one for signallers and one for controllers, each with a giant line diagram on the wall. Possibly each of the two sections might be acoustically isolated but still within sight of each other. There might also be CCTV screens which would show any station the operator chose. These operational floors would be in the uppermost section of the building, the floor immediately underneath the "control" floors divided into offices for Line Managers and their secretaries; with a Training Centre on a lower floor, and conference rooms on the first floor. All signalling and control in one place - line managers right there on the spot.
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DWS
every second count's
Posts: 2,487
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Post by DWS on Jun 25, 2010 11:08:53 GMT
Brand new purpose built building - one floor for each line with most of each floor taken up by an immense room divided into two sections, one for signallers and one for controllers, each with a giant line diagram on the wall. Possibly each of the two sections might be acoustically isolated but still within sight of each other. These operational floors would be in the uppermost section of the building, the floor immediately underneath the "control" floors divided into offices for Line Managers and their secretaries; with a Training Centre on a lower floor, and conference rooms on the first floor. All signalling and control in one place - line managers right there on the spot. Secretaries ? Thats old hat they are called Support Managers ;D
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Post by programmes1 on Jun 25, 2010 11:12:37 GMT
Well if Robert Dell had not been the Signal Engineer things would have been much better in that the Underground signalling would have been upgraded a lot quicker and we would not have stuck with programe machines which use old electronics which can only be got off ebay ;D Well I love PMs what I don't understand is why would the signalling have been upgraded quicker surely that comes under the control of Government and the like.
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slugabed
Zu lang am schnuller.
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Post by slugabed on Jun 25, 2010 11:17:17 GMT
All in one building? What would happen if there was a fire?
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Post by harlesden on Jun 25, 2010 11:17:47 GMT
Brand new purpose built building - one floor for each line with most of each floor taken up by an immense room divided into two sections, one for signallers and one for controllers, each with a giant line diagram on the wall. Possibly each of the two sections might be acoustically isolated but still within sight of each other. These operational floors would be in the uppermost section of the building, the floor immediately underneath the "control" floors divided into offices for Line Managers and their secretaries; with a Training Centre on a lower floor, and conference rooms on the first floor. All signalling and control in one place - line managers right there on the spot. Secretaries ? Thats old hat they are called Support Managers ;D Is that since the position of Line Manager became available to both genders?
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Post by citysig on Jun 25, 2010 11:20:20 GMT
As someone who has worked in both signalling and line control rooms, and has visited the other rooms on our combine, I have to say the better rooms are those where the controller and signaller are separate.
There are numerous conversations needed to take place each shift between the 2 grades, and having them in the same room generally means the quickest way to pass a message is to talk. Well, shout really. Noise levels soon creep up - especially during disruption.
Compare this to places such as Baker Street where, especially in the SCC, the noise level is such you could almost hear a pin drop at times.
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DWS
every second count's
Posts: 2,487
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Post by DWS on Jun 25, 2010 11:27:39 GMT
Well if Robert Dell had not been the Signal Engineer things would have been much better in that the Underground signalling would have been upgraded a lot quicker and we would not have stuck with programe machines which use old electronics which can only be got off ebay ;D Well I love PMs what I don't understand is why would the signalling have been upgraded quicker surely that comes under the control of Government and the like. Well you may like Programe Machines, but they are out dated kit and should all be retired to the London Transport Museum ;D Dell stuck with kit that was old hat and did not move with the times and new technology that other signalling engineers embraced.
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Post by programmes1 on Jun 25, 2010 11:41:33 GMT
Brand new purpose built building - one floor for each line with most of each floor taken up by an immense room divided into two sections, one for signallers and one for controllers, each with a giant line diagram on the wall. Possibly each of the two sections might be acoustically isolated but still within sight of each other. There might also be CCTV screens which would show any station the operator chose. These operational floors would be in the uppermost section of the building, the floor immediately underneath the "control" floors divided into offices for Line Managers and their secretaries; with a Training Centre on a lower floor, and conference rooms on the first floor. All signalling and control in one place - line managers right there on the spot. This would be very unwise especially in todays climate, there must be an alternative control but to be separate from each line is much better.
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Post by programmes1 on Jun 25, 2010 11:45:43 GMT
Well I love PMs what I don't understand is why would the signalling have been upgraded quicker surely that comes under the control of Government and the like. Well you may like Programe Machines, but they are out dated kit and should all be retired to the London Transport Museum ;D Dell stuck with kit that was old hat and did not move with the times and new technology that other signalling engineers embraced. They are now outdated but at the time of their introduction and with the right signallers worked very well and there was one in the LT museum lastly don't forget Robert Dell retired in 1969/70 although I believe he worked as a consultant after.
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,348
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Post by Colin on Jun 25, 2010 12:49:04 GMT
All service controllers have secondary locations (with admittedly very basic facilities) should there be a need to evacuate their usual location. The current train of thought (no pun intended) is that controllers and signallers become a shared role within a single room (ie, on Monday you might be on a signalling desk, Tuesday & Wednesday a controller then back to signaller on Thursday & Friday), though I suspect that may be getting quietly dropped judging by the stalling of current controller training. This is the way in which the Central line control room operates. The Bakerloo's controllers are also their signallers (on the LU section), though they're different to the Central line as they do both roles at the same time so they're perhaps more like Network Rail signallers. The District is now the same as the Met (quite literally as there's only a corridor between them) whereby the controllers are remote from signallers in control rooms & cabins. Northern has separate signaller & controller roles but they're all in the same room. The Victoria line used to be the same, and in the very same room too, but they've now moved out. The Picc is similar to the Northern, though their controllers do get involved in the signalling at the east end of the line in a separate room. They also have one cabin to deal with. What does that leave? Oh yeah, Jubilee... I haven't actually been to their control room, but I believe it to be similar to the Northern set up; the exception being that signalling Stanmore to Charing Cross is worked in a remote location. The upshot is that different lines do it different ways. Maybe it works better like that and the uniform approach isn't the right one EDIT: Line managers on site? They are!! Service Managers (DOM or Duty Operations Manager in old money) are located in the same building as their controllers and will be in the control room during large incidents.
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Post by programmes1 on Jun 25, 2010 14:00:15 GMT
Northern has separate signaller & controller roles but they're all in the same room. The Victoria line used to be the same, and in the very same room too, but they've now moved out. I thought the Victoria line was still at Cobourg Street although they have been using/testing their new control centre.
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,348
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Post by Colin on Jun 25, 2010 16:36:04 GMT
Switching between the two (old & new) has been going on for some months.
I am aware that they've had teething troubles with the new, but I had assumed they'd now sorted them out and had actually moved over fully. Presumably that's not the case then....
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Jun 25, 2010 17:27:09 GMT
Switching between the two (old & new) has been going on for some months. I am aware that they've had teething troubles with the new, but I had assumed they'd now sorted them out and had actually moved over fully. Presumably that's not the case then.... Victoria Line Controllers are definitely still located at Cobourg Street at least some of the time -- I recently called up the Northern Line Controller whilst on nights, when the call was answered I went through that "I recognise your voice but can't quite place who you are" feeling, then I realised I was speaking to the Victoria Line Controller, who was looking after the Northern Line desk for a couple of minutes.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Jun 25, 2010 17:30:42 GMT
As someone who has worked in both signalling and line control rooms, and has visited the other rooms on our combine, I have to say the better rooms are those where the controller and signaller are separate. There are numerous conversations needed to take place each shift between the 2 grades, and having them in the same room generally means the quickest way to pass a message is to talk. Well, shout really. Noise levels soon creep up - especially during disruption. Compare this to places such as Baker Street where, especially in the SCC, the noise level is such you could almost hear a pin drop at times. Do you find being in separate rooms increases workload noticeably? For example I can think of many occasions when I've witnessed the Northern Line controller shout commands or questions across to a Signal Operator, which are then immediately acted upon. Or is this balanced by the better reliability of communications being by telephone?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2010 18:25:54 GMT
As someone who has worked in both signalling and line control rooms, and has visited the other rooms on our combine, I have to say the better rooms are those where the controller and signaller are separate. There are numerous conversations needed to take place each shift between the 2 grades, and having them in the same room generally means the quickest way to pass a message is to talk. Well, shout really. Noise levels soon creep up - especially during disruption. Compare this to places such as Baker Street where, especially in the SCC, the noise level is such you could almost hear a pin drop at times. Do you find being in separate rooms increases workload noticeably? For example I can think of many occasions when I've witnessed the Northern Line controller shout commands or questions across to a Signal Operator, which are then immediately acted upon. Or is this balanced by the better reliability of communications being by telephone? Personally I find it better to be in a seperate room (having worked in both environments) because of the quieter working environment. I am not a fan of the shouting over the top as it not only increases the room volume, it becomes distracting and if you're focusing on something, won't hear what is being shouted at you! However, I do often shout things over - mainly because you can! Shouting over is only used for minor things, something to be done ASAP (if the other party is on the phone for instance - interupt doesn't work on a multi line in spexi line type phone - as it just shows a spexi line is calling), or if you've just put the phone down, forgotten to say something and don't wanna call them back When I worked at a location where the controllers and signal people were in seperate rooms it was a much more stable (this is the best way I can put it) way of doing things, much easier to manage the environment. I will say that then having worked somewhere where the controllers left the room where most of their signal people were, things did not go well. Partly for political reasons, partly as it was now easier for them to blame everyone else for their failings (and still do) and maybe because it was such a culture change. So maybe changing it because everyone is so used to it isn't the best idea. I don't think having people in all grades that aren't 100% up to the job, lazy people and trackernet help either.
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Post by citysig on Jun 25, 2010 23:24:21 GMT
The current train of thought (no pun intended) is that controllers and signallers become a shared role within a single room (ie, on Monday you might be on a signalling desk, Tuesday & Wednesday a controller then back to signaller on Thursday & Friday), though I suspect that may be getting quietly dropped judging by the stalling of current controller training. This is the way in which the Central line control room operates. It's been on and off the table throughout the Hammersmith developments, and is currently "off" the table. I've always been opposed to multi-function. Better to have a handful of good signallers and controllers than 2 handfuls of people who are only good at one role but have no choice but to do both. DMTs (desk and incident) are classic examples of this. Very rarely do you find one who excels at both roles. The Bakerloo's controllers are also their signallers (on the LU section), though they're different to the Central line as they do both roles at the same time so they're perhaps more like Network Rail signallers. The Bakerloo has always been slightly different since its move to Baker Street. At one time they also used to run their own Engineering Controllers (TAC nowadays). The way in which the computer system runs the railway (identical to the Met SCC area) and the staffing needed to do that job, it always seemed to make sense to have 2 people on the desk - 1 controller, 1 signaller - who can make the decisions between them. For larger lines, and those not controlled from one location, this sort of set up doesn't fit as well. The District is now the same as the Met (quite literally as there's only a corridor between them) whereby the controllers are remote from signallers in control rooms & cabins. The District will never be the same as the Met and that corridor is not just a mere corridor. It is like the boundary of 2 opposing nations ;D But I agree with the rest of the paragraph. What does that leave? Oh yeah, Jubilee... I haven't actually been to their control room, but I believe it to be similar to the Northern set up; the exception being that signalling Stanmore to Charing Cross is worked in a remote location. The Jubilee started off trying to emulate the Bakerloo set-up, with Controllers and Signallers all being able to do each others job. However, what the Jubilee management also did was refuse entry to the many experienced controllers and signallers on LU, and employed lots of inexperienced "off the street" people. It took years to get everyone trained up and able to cover (with a certain amount of confidence) each and every position. When it comes to talking of the future, the Jubilee Line room is always mentioned as one of the cautionary tales when it comes to employing staff and when talking of setting up roles within a new room. Which is why at present Hammersmith will be taking existing staff to do the roles they currently do. EDIT: Line managers on site? They are!! Service Managers (DOM or Duty Operations Manager in old money) are located in the same building as their controllers and will be in the control room during large incidents. Some control rooms (the District is of note) appear to have their SMs sat on the controllers lap for much of the shift. Other control rooms (such as the Met) generally only see the SM when something is occuring, or if he is making the tea. It varies depending on the particular SM on duty.
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Post by londonse on Jun 27, 2010 11:04:47 GMT
Thanks everyone for the input.
Paul
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