Them and Us?

[Deleted]

Last night, in my teenage sleep, I pondered a question.
How do LUL and DLR staff treat each other? What I mean is the DLR treated as 'just another line' or is it treated by staff as a completely different entity?

I know that it is a different mode, but on my first trip (Bank to Canary Wharf) I was very surprised how the DLR occupied a platform very close and similar in look as say, the northern line platform.

Would LUL staff often work with DLR staff? Or is it really 'them and us'?

Robert

[superteacher]

They may be shown on the same map, but they are different operating companies, with very different rules and regulations. "Them and us" makes it sound like a rivalry - I don't think it's like that though

[Deleted]

Hmm, thanks. Do DLR staff receive the same benefits as LUL staff (i.e. staff oystercard, same staff pension) ect.

[superteacher]

Aug 3, 2010 17:26:05 GMT @robert said:

Hmm, thanks. Do DLR staff receive the same benefits as LUL staff (i.e. staff oystercard, same staff pension) ect.

I believe that all staff who work under the TFL banner receive a staff oystercard which gives them free travel on TFL services, and discounted travel on National Rail. Wouldn't have a clue about pensions, maybe someone who works for them will know that, and there are some who are members of this forum.

[Dstock7080]

Aug 3, 2010 17:47:02 GMT superteacher said:

Aug 3, 2010 17:26:05 GMT @robert said:

Hmm, thanks. Do DLR staff receive the same benefits as LUL staff (i.e. staff oystercard, same staff pension) ect.

I believe that all staff who work under the TFL banner receive a staff oystercard which gives them free travel on TFL services, and discounted travel on National Rail. Wouldn't have a clue about pensions, maybe someone who works for them will know that, and there are some who are members of this forum.

The TfL Staff Oyster card has to be endorsed "PTAC" to receive the NR discount.
Not all Staff are issued with these.

[Deleted]

Out of interest, what is the NR discount and which members of staff recieve this?

[Tomcakes]

As I understand it :-

All TfL staff get free travel on TfL services. There is also a large discount on BR season ticket purchases - 75% I believe - and can be given as a loan.

Certain staff - I understand those employed prior to some date in the 1990s - get a "priv" card which allows travel over the whole BR network for pittance.

This only applies to staff employed directly by TfL - contractors etc do not get such perks (sadly!).

[Deleted]

So, all staff get the discount, then some staff prior to the date get the magic card to travel over the whole BR network?

[superteacher]

My friend's dad used to work for BR, and he (and my friend) got seriously cheap travel on London Transport as it was then. Do staff working for National Rail still get a discount for TFL services? I imagine it would be more difficulr these days, as it consists of so many companies!

[Deleted]

Does free/discounted rail travel for staff get taxed as a benefit in kind?

Xerces Fobe

[Colin]

For LU staff:

Pre 1996
TfL staff pass giving free travel on LU, buses, trams, DLR and some National rail routes (usually where there's a parallel route).

Addition of a PTAC (Privilege Travel Authority Card) which gives a 75% discount for any leisure journey on former British Rail services.

Loan available to assist with purchase of an annual NR ticket which can be used for travel to & from work. Employee only pays 25% of the cost (ie, 75% discount available, but not until after ticket is purchased).
Post 1996
TfL staff pass giving free travel on LU, buses, trams, DLR and some National rail routes (usually where there's a parallel route).

Loan available to assist with purchase of an annual NR ticket which can be used for travel to & from work. Employee only pays 25% of the cost (ie, 75% discount available, but not until after ticket is purchased).

----------------------------------

NR TOC staff have varying arrangements depending on the company they work for, but many have a discount arrangement with LU. This of course is seen as unfair to post 1996 staff (such as myself), but this is what you get with a fragmented system.

[21146]

The staff travel arrangements for bus staff are interesting. Full bus/Underground free travel under LT Buses.

Tendered bus private company staff started off in the LRT-era with nothing except maybe on-duty travel on their own route (e.g. London Buslines' 81). Later on, LRT reluctantly gave a bus-only all-London pass to new staff of the private bus operators, no doubt due to staff shortages.

Now the wheel's full-circle under TFL with everyone getting full bus, Underground, LO, DLR and tram availability.

[su31]

Aug 3, 2010 23:32:04 GMT @21146 said:

The staff travel arrangements for bus staff are interesting. Full bus/Underground free travel under LT Buses.

Tendered bus private company staff started off in the LRT-era with nothing except maybe on-duty travel on their own route (e.g. London Buslines' 81). Later on, LRT reluctantly gave a bus-only all-London pass to new staff of the private bus operators, no doubt due to staff shortages.

Now the wheel's full-circle under TFL with everyone getting full bus, Underground, LO, DLR and tram availability.

It's very interesting that you mention London Buslines' 81 in your text. I worked for them on work experience from school back in the 1988/89 era, and I also did a few shifts in the office in Isleworth as an assistant.
Whilst I was working, I was given a letter which gave me authority to travel on their routes. I can still remember a revenue inspector looking rather bemused at the document, and he had to go and check its validity with the bus driver!

[harlesden]

Fond memories of the Priv. Got a 7day All-Line Rail Rover for around £25.
When my ticket office colleagues asked me where I'd been for my holiday, I was able to say Inverness, Glasgow, Carlisle, York, Cleethorpes, Lincoln, Nottingham, Leicester, Coventry, Norwich, Cardiff, Windsor, Bristol, Exeter. Overnight trains in those days - the 01:15 York/Newcastle train from London Kings Cross was my favourite.

[Deleted]

For the latest available PTAC facilities see below:

Active Staff

www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSTDocuments/SRLS033_0410_SGActive.pdf

Retired Staff

www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSTDocuments/SRLS035_0410_SGRetd.pdf

TOC New Entrants

www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSTDocuments/SRLS034_0410_TOCNE.pdf

[railtechnician]

Aug 3, 2010 21:50:15 GMT Colin said:

For LU staff:

Pre 1996
TfL staff pass giving free travel on LU, buses, trams, DLR and some National rail routes (usually where there's a parallel route).

Addition of a PTAC (Privilege Travel Authority Card) which gives a 75% discount for any leisure journey on former British Rail services.

Loan available to assist with purchase of an annual NR ticket which can be used for travel to & from work. Employee only pays 25% of the cost (ie, 75% discount available, but not until after ticket is purchased).
Post 1996
TfL staff pass giving free travel on LU, buses, trams, DLR and some National rail routes (usually where there's a parallel route).

Loan available to assist with purchase of an annual NR ticket which can be used for travel to & from work. Employee only pays 25% of the cost (ie, 75% discount available, but not until after ticket is purchased).

----------------------------------

NR TOC staff have varying arrangements depending on the company they work for, but many have a discount arrangement with LU. This of course is seen as unfair to post 1996 staff (such as myself), but this is what you get with a fragmented system.

You know I haven't a clue how useful a PTAC is these days, I haven't used mine since I retired in 2005 and haven't paid a train fare on NR since 1999. In fact apart from occasional 'local' suburban trips in London I've seldom used NR at all in the last 40 years, the last occasion was a one day training course, fare paid for by LU on a railway warrant.
Does the PTAC really give travel at 25%? That is not my understanding though it is hard to know as NR fares seem to be a minefield and my understanding is that the discount is applied only to the full fare which seems to be a lot more than what many tickets are sold at and as such I am led to believe that buying a ticket without a PTAC 'could' be cheaper. I believe that 'turn up and go' is the most expensive way to use NR but buying a ticket online seems to be a time consuming and frustrating experience and in any case does not allow for PTAC as far as I have seen. Thus much as I would love to spend some time travelling the length and breadth of the national network it isn't going to happen, if I want to go anywhere I will use the car though nowadays it is an expensive hobby and I limit my mileage to an affordable average of around 30 miles per week which is mostly necessary shopping usage as I live in the sticks now.
My recollection of Priv Ticket Regs back in the 1970s was a of very thick book which got thinner and thinner over the years. I haven't seen a copy in years because I used to drive everywhere as it was usually more convenient and much more comfortable and probably cheaper too!

[Oracle]

I knew a former Central bus driver that left to work on the Country buses pre-1970, and although he worked for LCBS (London Country), had a pass to cover LT as well. His colleague joined LCBS after 1970 but as LT had the contract to provide St John's Ambulance First Aid training to LCBS staff, he was given a pass to cover all of LT as the training was done at Oxford Circus and needed to get there from ..Hemel Hempstead I think it was.

What benefits did post-1970 Green Line staff, especially Inspectors get, so as to get around the LT area?

Also, a chap along the road has a Gold Pass as a controller at Waterloo on SWT (so First Class Priv). Were there and are there still equivalents for pre- and post-1970 Underground senior employees?

[railtechnician]

Aug 3, 2010 16:10:32 GMT @robert said:

Last night, in my teenage sleep, I pondered a question.
How do LUL and DLR staff treat each other? What I mean is the DLR treated as 'just another line' or is it treated by staff as a completely different entity?

I know that it is a different mode, but on my first trip (Bank to Canary Wharf) I was very surprised how the DLR occupied a platform very close and similar in look as say, the northern line platform.

Would LUL staff often work with DLR staff? Or is it really 'them and us'?

Robert

Speaking as a former LT/LU/Tube Lines employee I would say that there was very much a them and us attitude not only between DLR and LU but latterly between the outsourced engineering staff, at Metronet and Tube Lines, and LU.

There would perhaps never have been a DLR if the Jubilee line had been built as originally planned but as we know that fizzled out following Stage 1 and DLR was a subsequent cheaper option.
DLR signal installation was done by LU signals and comms staff, indeed I nearly did a secondment on the Beckton extension at the then Gallions Reach depot. I visited Poplar at the time on a 'looksee' trip to the DLR to see what was involved and bumped into LT/LU people that I hadn't seen for years and ever since then I have thought of the DLR as the LT retirement home for managers!
Other than that as someone has already mentioned the culture is different as are the operations, rules, regs and procedures.

Of course DLR is one section of TfL and I can't help asking myself if TfL is just a reincarnation of the LPTB of 1933 to a larger extent and I do wonder if in time it will all be firmly back in public ownership at some future time, there is certainly some level of convergence and there may have been much more had DLR not been lifted from the hands of LRT into those of the LDDC years before TfL was dreamt up.

[railtechnician]

Aug 4, 2010 8:18:48 GMT Oracle said:

I knew a former Central bus driver that left to work on the Country buses pre-1970, and although he worked for LCBS (London Country), had a pass to cover LT as well. His colleague joined LCBS after 1970 but as LT had the contract to provide St John's Ambulance First Aid training to LCBS staff, he was given a pass to cover all of LT as the training was done at Oxford Circus and needed to get there from ..Hemel Hempstead I think it was.

What benefits did post-1970 Green Line staff, especially Inspectors get, so as to get around the LT area?

Also, a chap along the road has a Gold Pass as a controller at Waterloo on SWT (so First Class Priv). Were there and are there still equivalents for pre- and post-1970 Underground senior employees?

When I started with LT in 1977 many of my engineering colleagues had been on the combine since before 1970. Those employed prior to the LT/LC split had slightly different staff passes which allowed them to keep their free travel on LC services. No doubt the arrangements were reciprocal for LC staff who had been employed before the split.

Those of us beginning service after the split simply didn't have free travel on those services no longer part of the company and AIUI that would've applied to all staff employed after the split.


In general terms my understanding is that among transport companies travel rights and privileges tend to be 'grandfathered' so there will always be different classes of staff travellers amongst the employees of any transport undertaking but what the differences are can be many and varied. I think some may still get first class priv tickets and X free tickets per year too. Of course some 'rights and privileges' are withdrawn from time to time and the regs change frequently too so it is hard to comment without specific knowledge about any given period in time.