TBTC Testing

[Deleted]

I assume that the TBTC testing is under way today. TfL website reporting a signal failure at Waterloo earlier causing minor delays... who broke it already? ;D

[paterson00]

Tbtc testing has been ongoing for a good while now. Trial ops, I think, are occurring today at the Stratford end of the line. This would mean that iirc it's handed over to tube lines to run a dummy service to timetable and any faults that occur are down to them so they can test response times to faults etc.

[Deleted]

I was referring to the passenger service TBTC testing that was supposed to happen today.

[Deleted]

I travelled on this today around 14:00. I assume – indeed I hope – that TBTC was not in use. There were multiple signal failures, at Stratford, North Greenwich and Waterloo while I was on it, with long delays, and there was not the smooth constant deceleration to station stops that I expect from automatic operation. Acceleration seemed normal, and noticeably jittery. However, the train did seem to run very fast between certain stations, subjectively faster than they normally run on the western section, though as I'm not a regular traveller on the east end of the line I can't really compare with "normal" running over that section. As an aside, many people didn't realise trains only ran to Waterloo, and there were many confused passengers trying to get to Bond Street etc.

By contrast, the new Victoria line train I also managed to travel on had an acceleration–deceleration profile second to none, beautifully smooth.

[Deleted]

Can TBTC somehow affect old signalling too? It seems to me that recently trains started to run much faster between Baker Street and Bond Street (southbound).

[superteacher]

Aug 14, 2010 17:04:20 GMT linus said:

I travelled on this today around 14:00. I assume – indeed I hope – that TBTC was not in use. There were multiple signal failures, at Stratford, North Greenwich and Waterloo while I was on it, with long delays, and there was not the smooth constant deceleration to station stops that I expect from automatic operation. Acceleration seemed normal, and noticeably jittery. However, the train did seem to run very fast between certain stations, subjectively faster than they normally run on the western section, though as I'm not a regular traveller on the east end of the line I can't really compare with "normal" running over that section. As an aside, many people didn't realise trains only ran to Waterloo, and there were many confused passengers trying to get to Bond Street etc.

By contrast, the new Victoria line train I also managed to travel on had an acceleration–deceleration profile second to none, beautifully smooth.

TBTC may have been in use, but automatic operation is still some way off. TBTC needs to be shown to be reliable before they even consider bringing ATO in. Although not the same system, it was a similar arrangement when they brought in ATP on the Central line. It was a good two years after that before ATO was rolled out, althougj I'm hoping it won't be that long on the Jubilee!

[Deleted]

It shouldn't take as long as it did with the Central to get the ATO up and running. On the Central the ATO was a completely separate box on the train that needed to have its software sorted out after the ATP was up and running.

With the Jubilee the ATP and ATO are integrated into one box on the train so ATO operation, that has already had some good test results, should be out in passenger service quite soon.

[Deleted]

Ah! Thanks – I had assumed TBTC was synonymous with ATO. That explains everything. In that case, I change my assumption to TBTC was in use yesterday, without ATO, in which case no doubt valuable lessons will have been learnt from the various "signal failures". I look forward to experiencing Jubilee Line ATO in due course (if I'm still alive then).

[Deleted]

Aug 14, 2010 17:04:20 GMT linus said:

I travelled on this today around 14:00. I assume – indeed I hope – that TBTC was not in use. There were multiple signal failures, at Stratford, North Greenwich and Waterloo while I was on it, with long delays

That was Saturday, we went on it on Sunday. Is this the first time with the new signals?

Train came into Canning Town, we boarded, then a delay of about 2 minutes before departure. Not a very auspicious start.

Couple of things we noticed along the way. Firstly there seems a distinct hesitancy now between the train stopping and the doors being released. maybe about 5 seconds per station. Multiply that by the number of stations along the Jubilee and you get quite a delay. A more trivial aspect is that all the Next Station announcements are now made twice, not once.

From approaching Southwark to arriving at Waterloo took us between 10 and 15 minutes. Stopped twice in the tunnel before Southwark, and then a long delay at the platform as well. So the total travel time to Waterloo alone was way longer than it normally is. And now we have to trudge on indirectly to the West End.

Not putting up with that again on the way home. Came back on the District and the DLR.

[Deleted]

I can report that the Jubilee line sucessfully used TBTC this weekend and for the most part it worked very well.
There was a 3 hour late start to services on Saturday morning due to Tubelines handing the system over late but the first train left Stratford at 08:31 and ran without incident to Waterloo.
Now the challenge is to get the rest of the line up and running then move on to ATO.

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2010 22:13:57 GMT @southernrover said:

I can report that the Jubilee line sucessfully used TBTC this weekend .........There was a 3 hour late start to services on Saturday morning.

I am just surprised that the "successful" weekend seems at variance with each of the detailed descriptions of journeys given above. Did this conclusion come from the "Good Service" message department?

But then if "successful" includes a three hour late start, which completely disrupts anybody who had to get to their work on that day, I suppose further comments are superfluous.

[Deleted]

i must join in saying that it was a very successful TBTC in passenger service on Sunday. Saturday was filled with SRS problems which took nearly 45 mins to resolve but after it was resolved trains ran whizzing past ............... i hope that they will tweak the system further and in the coming closures cement the TBTC running.

[Deleted]

Believe me when I say, If you had seen how many failures there were when trial ops first started, you would deem this weekend just gone a success!

[21146]

The Jubilee Service Manager's report for last Sat reads as a litany of signalling/code failures and associated delays; alas forum rules do not allow it to be copied onto here.

[Deleted]

Although it may not seem that way to passengers, southernrover is right, even a couple of months ago the (relatively) small number of minutes of delays clocked up over the weekend would have been unthinkable. Although I admit there's some way to go yet before you would want to let the TBTC loose on a weekday morning peak service.......

[paterson00]

Aug 16, 2010 10:28:52 GMT @visjig said:

i must join in saying that it was a very successful TBTC in passenger service on Sunday. Saturday was filled with SRS problems which took nearly 45 mins to resolve but after it was resolved trains ran whizzing past ............... i hope that they will tweak the system further and in the coming closures cement the TBTC running.

SRS?

[DWS]

SRS = Schedule Regulation Server.

[thirstquensher]

Aug 17, 2010 7:17:15 GMT DWS said:

SRS = Schedule Regulation Server.

Of course, not to be confused with

SRS = System Requirements Specification,
The document LU writes to specify what a project's principal contract is supposed to deliver.

Just to show that abbreviations are coined by bright sparks to make things "easier", we also have:

CMS = Cable Management System
and
CMS = Compliance Submission,
A document package that a contractor is required to deliver to LU that details design methodology and contains all relevant drawings, specifications, etc.

What else? Oh yes,
CC = Carbon Copy (e-Mail recipient who is not primary actionee)
and
CC = Contractor Communication (a form by which a contractor is expected to communicate with LU)
...very useful in clarifying the phrase "I've CC'd you in".

What else? Oh yes,
CD = Compact Disc (as in, CD-Rom - a mechanism very often employed for conveying large quantities of data)
and
CD = Contractor's Direction (in a Build not Design contract, like a PMI (Project Manager's Instruction) but specifying which externally-produced drawings may now be considered 'For Construction')
...very useful in clarifying the phrase "we've had the drawings in on a CD".

What else......?!

[Deleted]

To me, CMS is 'Content Management System' - in its simplest form, used to power websites (CMSs in this sense include e107 and Wordpress, but there are others!)

[Chris M]

TO - Train Operator
TO - Technical Officer

[Deleted]

Am curious to know how the experience of TBTC was this weekend... An improvement on last Sat I hope?

[Deleted]

With the greatly extended installation and testing periods so far, has any one any idea how much this has cost upto now?

[Deleted]

Aug 23, 2010 6:55:02 GMT @cityboy said:

Am curious to know how the experience of TBTC was this weekend... An improvement on last Sat I hope?

No trains ran in TBTC passenger service this gone weekend.

[Deleted]

Aug 24, 2010 9:55:21 GMT @visjig said:

Aug 23, 2010 6:55:02 GMT @cityboy said:

Am curious to know how the experience of TBTC was this weekend... An improvement on last Sat I hope?

No trains ran in TBTC passenger service this gone weekend.

They wont be in passenger service this weekend either.
Its trial ops from Stratford to West Hampstead Sun/Mon.
Normal Saturday service though.

[Deleted]

There wouldn't happen to be TBTC testing today in service would there? There seems to be a constant stream of signal failures or failed trains today.

[DWS]

Sept 11, 2010 21:25:30 GMT @cj said:

There wouldn't happen to be TBTC testing today in service would there? There seems to be a constant stream of signal failures or failed trains today.

Yes TBTC is in operation between Stratford and Waterloo with trains in passenger service.

TBTC does not have any lineside signals as such, but the system can and does fail.

The idea of the weekend use is to find out what does and does not work, if the line is to move forward and get the new system to work, it needs to be used under real time use.

[Deleted]

Sept 11, 2010 21:25:30 GMT @cj said:

There wouldn't happen to be TBTC testing today in service would there? There seems to be a constant stream of signal failures or failed trains today.

Just keeping you all up to date with our weekend rides on the Jubilee. Here we go this afternoon, off from Canning Town to Bond Street

Came down from the DLR onto the Jubilee platform at Canning Town, and noticed some long intervals, like more than 10 minutes, in the frequency. Anyway, eventually the train comes in, we all board, and it sits there.

Then comes the splendid moment. A lady on the PA makes an announcement that train services this weekend are suspended beyond Waterloo. This is immediately followed by a gentleman on the PA announcing that due to a problem at Waterloo, trains are suspended beyond London Bridge. At the end of that the driver makes an announcement to us all that due to this issue further along the line, the trains will be turning round at North Greenwich.

You have to admit that having three separate announcements, each with a different message about how far trains can get, is something unusual.

The sensible thing to do now was get out and go the other way up to Stratford, so we can get the Central Line from there. Next train to Stratford in 11 minutes. So a good chunk of the afternoon spent admiring the Canning Town surroundings.

When we get out at Bond Street we hear that because of a "signal failure", the Jubilee Line was now suspended between North Greenwich and Stratford. Just missed that then.

Sat having a chat with my hairdresser, in a place near Bond Street. She lives down towards Crystal Palace, poor girl, and so comes to work through London Bridge. Except not at weekends it seems. Said she was fed up with the constant disruption to her coming to work at weekends, with no Jubilee Line, and was thinking of changing jobs as she can see no end to it.

So it seems the "new signals" means no service to get to the West End at weekends until goodness knows when, inability to put out meaningful non-conflicting messages any longer, worse handling of problems when they arise, disorganisation whenever I try and travel, and people having to quit their jobs. You boys (it must be men) who put this whole scheme together should be ashamed to draw your salaries every month.

[Chris M]

Sept 11, 2010 23:03:52 GMT @diana said:

You boys (it must be men) who put this whole scheme together should be ashamed to draw your salaries every month.

As I understand it, the main problem is not with the idea of the scheme, niether with those installing and testing the scheme. Rather the problems are caused by the method chosen to install, test and commission.
Again AIUI, the people primarily responsible for designing the programme to install, test and commission the new system are now not drawing salaries every month since they walked away/were bought by TfL, who are now trying to do their best to test and commission a system using an inherited plan for doing so that is not really fit for purpose. The physical situation as it exists at the moment means that no better plan is possible (although I think they are working on that)

I neither know, nor see the relevance of, the gender of whichever person or people are responsible for any part of the current shambles.

[rincew1nd]

For the first time in my life today I got off a tube train because I wasn't enjoying the 'environment'. I took the Overground from Shoreditch High Street to Canada Water where there was a Jubilee Line train waiting to take me back to my hotel at Waterloo.

I walked the length of the train twice whilst it was sat in the platform; trying to find a doorway with space for me on the train. An announcement was made that the train was being held because of "blocking back for a reversing train at Waterloo".

After a little while the train left (with me squished into a doorway) we stopped on the approach to London Bridge, waited at London Bridge, waited a bit longer, got a bit hotter.

Set off, stopped. Set off again, stopped. Set off again, slowed, stopped *very* prompty#. Waited. Waited. Felt sick. Waited. Moved. Stopped. Moved. Felt even sicker. Stopped at Southwark. Dived off the train. By the time I got off I felt so queasy I decided to 'surface' and walk the last bit to where I am staying.

All the public information proclaimed there to be a "good service" on the Jubilee; I didn't feel "good". I fully accept that there needs to be trial operations, but IMHO it seemed that either:

1) The signalling couldn't cope with the timetable
2) The timetable wasn't written with the signalling in mind.

Either of these points I would have though would have been identified during the period(s) of non-passenger trial running.

PK

#as promptly as when I was on a MerseyRail service that passed a signal at red and was (intentionally) tripped.

[Tom]

Aug 17, 2010 22:17:37 GMT Chris M said:

TO - Train Operator
TO - Technical Officer

Train Operator is usually abbreviated to T/Op.