TBTC Testing

[Tom]

Sept 11, 2010 23:03:52 GMT @diana said:

You boys (it must be men) who put this whole scheme together should be ashamed to draw your salaries every month.

As it happens one of the Senior Engineers implementing TBTC is a Woman. Complain about the service all you like, but ignorant and sexist comments like that are out of order.

[angelislington]

Sept 11, 2010 23:03:52 GMT @diana said:

You boys (it must be men) who put this whole scheme together should be ashamed to draw your salaries every month.

[Mod Hat=on] Diana, I am fully with you on your frustrations at what seems like a crazy system; but please don't point direct fingers at anyone without concrete proof and please, please, don't assume that a problem has been generated simply because of a person's gender! We've come so very far in terms of gender equality and TfL are one of the best employers in those terms - and that's from personal experience. [Mod Hat=off]

Thanks!

[SE13]

Nothing further to add, aside from that apart from emergencies, everything is worked out and advertised months and months in advance.

Given that I don't work for TfL but have worked in the transport industry, I fully appreciate what it's like when there is absolutely nothing I can do about a situation. But the things won't fly, and to that end there's little or nothing anyone can do about it.

[angelislington]

What things? Oh, you mean your buses - wouldn't that be fab if they could fly! ;D Let's keep the choob trains on the rails though, there's little enough headroom as it is

Aaaanyway, to get this thread back onto the rails is this system communications as well or just signalling? (Forgive me if this is a numpty question which has been covered elsewhere, but my interest in such things is only growing slowly - must be all of MRFS42's influence, heh!)

[Tom]

I think one of the issues with TBTC is it's a system that is far more comms based than a conventional signalling system. It's almost as if the signalling bits are an afterthought to the comms.

[Deleted]

It sounds like things are working about as poorly as they did with the same system in San Francisco when it was first implemented. It failed quite often, which caused the train apply emergency brakes so all the rolling stock was retrofitted with an "Emergency Brake Application Limiting Device" which, I believe, makes the emergency brake application less sharp. The signal system failed so frequently that it became standard practice to just disable the TBTC equipment and run on sight, which eventually led to a train running into the back of another one at 30 mph. At least the Jubilee Line is a more appropriate use case for Seltrac compared to SF's streetcar subway.

[Deleted]

Because the emergency braking on SF MUNI uses track brakes, the decelleration rate is much greater than you get on LU trains. The SelTrac system regularly and erroneously applying the EB was injuring passengers, causing many to be hospitalised. The EBALD reduces the brake rate when the SelTrac system applies the EB, but the full brake rate is still in place if the EB is applied by the train operator.

Of course, as crzwdjk points out, if Thales had been able to make the SelTrac system reliable then the project to fit EBALDs to all cars wouldn't have been necessary.

[Deleted]

Hello all. Haven't had one of my descriptions of the weekend wonders on the Jubilee Line for a couple of weeks, because we haven't been around. But we did go that way yesterday, and yes, from Canning Town to the West End was indeed operating. Except that it wasn't.

By the way, some people are apparently fed up with me writing about reality on the system, so to avoid their blood vessels bursting again, those of this disposition should read no further.

Early afternoon, get to Canning Town, down to the Jubilee Line platform, complete disorganisation, no next train shown. So straight back up to the DLR, Tower, District Line, and we were only half an hour late for our appointment. Did later hear something about a signal failure. At least we said it will be sorted out when we return.

So, late evening, get on the Piccadilly Line at Knightsbridge, change at Green Park - and the gates are closed across the Jubilee Line passages from the platform there. No notices at the gate, no staff in attendance, just shut. Many people milling around, then we hear the PA that the Jubilee is "suspended due to a signal failure at West Hampstead". So, after having spent time advising those from overseas what to do (including a Spanish family who could just about say "Westminster", but none of "closed", "shut", and certainly not "signal failure at West Hampstead"), and done much pointing at maps, we made our own way by another Piccadilly Line, Central Line, and DLR from Bank.

There was, by the way, no District Line out to East London, and now no Jubilee Line from the West End, so the DLR was shouldering all the load heading this way, and even at 11.30pm Bank was heaving on the platform. Finally in comes the next train, stops way back in the platform at the far end from the entrance (I know it does this but most others don't), everyone starts back only once they realise this, big press at the first doors, after a few seconds it's the peeps at the doors, slammed closed, and many people left standing shocked on the platform, even though there's still space in the train. By the time we were home it had taken us 2 hours.

So, TfL, that's life on your system at weekends. On the DLR, we know that departure to the second is the only consideration, and it's "stuff you" to any paying passengers waiting to board the train (though quite why they can't schedule more than 20 seconds platform time at Bank when they get so overwhelmed, or even just stop at the entrance end instead, is still a mystery).

But as for the Jubilee Line, we haven't had a single un-disorganised weekend journey since the new signals were turned on at weekends a month or two ago. Not one. When are the TfL management finally going to realise, that as sometimes happens with large projects, the project team are just not going to make it. You see, you can't go on with such gross disorganisation for ever. One day someone is going to have to realise that the way the new signals have been cobbled together just does not work, and never can work, reliably enough, the money has all been wasted, and we will just revert back to the old signals (not that old actually, they only date from 1999), and forget all this automatic-driving mullarkey.

We are told down at Canary Wharf that it's all necessary to provide extra capacity on the Jubilee Line at rush hours. Well come, I believe, 2017, then Crossrail will be open, and much of the demand will move away to the new faster line. And who believes that the new Jubilee Line signals can be got working properly by then?

[Deleted]

Try not to use the Jubilee, Diana. Roll serenely along on the top of a bus- the best way to see London, according to Gladstone.

[mrfs42]

Sept 26, 2010 7:10:37 GMT @diana said:

, and we will just revert back to the old signals (not that old actually, they only date from 1999)

Only in those positions - the 'old' signals are much older than that, being s/hand off the Central Line.

[Deleted]

"Severe delays are occurring due to an earlier signal failure at Stratford."
Second day of delays and suspensions - and yesterday trains ran with 10 min intervals. If this is what TBTC will bring, I'm already scared.

Now the question is, should I try getting Jubilee or forget about it and walk to trusty ol' Bakerloo.

[messiah]

Yesterday going into town around 1pm and coming back around 6pm it was like rush hour, with a full crush to get on the tube - the reason everybody was reluctant to wait for the next one was that the next tube was advertised as being 8 mins and 10 mins repsectively, and in that time the crowds would build up, and there would be an equivalent crush on the next tube.

But like we're told, we should be grateful for having any service at all at the weekend.

[21146]

Some readers may not like Diana's messages, but don't shoot the messenger! She offers a true insight into what Jubilee Line passengers have to put up with weekend after weekend. Today they wanted "minor delays" before the service had even started up. Yesterday, it ran so late that stations started to close (some staff are not co-operating by staying on due to the unconnected RMT/TSSA overtime ban), so despite trains still queuing EB to get back to Stratford, passengers were kicked out of stations and sent home by taxis to Essex and Kent. The internal politics in all this is shocking, with service status messages being "massaged down" to present the least negative impression. The lack of joined-up thinking similarly so, why are two out of the three east-west LU lines (Jubilee and District/H&C) suspended on the same weekend, leaving just the Central, when the work used to be staggered? (Because of all the extra dates TFL allowed Tube Lines of course.) The easiest way round is to change at Bank for Cannon Street at street level, but the latter is not open. Mansion House is the next option, the quickest route being up from the Central to the main Bank ticket hall, then on foot. But some idiot has allowed this to be closed too for engineering, meaning a further lengthy detour via the rush hour King William St booking hall. Finally some other cretin (presumably TFL's London Streets operation), has shut off the pedestrian crossing outside Mile End meaning even more hassle when attempting to use the infrequent rail replacement buses. You couldn't make it up - well you could - but who'd believe it? I suppose you could always complain to Customer Services for the standard "cut & paste" response from a temp.

[21146]

Severe delays are occurring due to a faulty train earlier at Bermondsey.

[Chris M]

I went past Mile End twice today on the top deck of a 277 (between Westferry and Victoria Park) and on both journeys there was no shortage of rail replacement buses around.
The traffic light phasing in the area, particularly at the A13 junction, seems to be designed to cause as much delay to every direction as possible though, which really will not help.

[Deleted]

Service update: 19:26, yet another proverbial signal failiure at Stratford means severe delays to the operational bit of the line!

This is insane!

[Deleted]

Sept 26, 2010 14:30:29 GMT @21146 said:

Some readers may not like Diana's messages, but don't shoot the messenger! She offers a true insight into what Jubilee Line passengers have to put up with weekend after weekend.

Thank you, sir.

Today we went back to the same place in the West End. In contrast it was a nice, undelayed journey, took about 35 minutes. Back home in the same manner.

We drove, you see. I had to decline a glass of wine or two, but in contrast there was a huge upside of timesaving and lack of stress. It really is the sensible way to travel.

[Deleted]

Sept 26, 2010 18:38:22 GMT @diana said:

Sept 26, 2010 14:30:29 GMT @21146 said:

Some readers may not like Diana's messages, but don't shoot the messenger! She offers a true insight into what Jubilee Line passengers have to put up with weekend after weekend.

Thank you, sir.

Today we went back to the same place in the West End. In contrast it was a nice, undelayed journey, took about 35 minutes. Back home in the same manner.

We drove, you see. I had to decline a glass of wine or two, but in contrast there was a huge upside of timesaving and lack of stress. It really is the sensible way to travel.

Can I ask have you put your complaints direct to TfL or perhaps your GLA member or MP? And have you any sort of meaningful reply?

[Deleted]

Sept 26, 2010 18:29:26 GMT @delboy200 said:

Service update: 19:26, yet another proverbial signal failiure at Stratford means severe delays to the operational bit of the line!

This is insane!

There was some failure here or there literally entire day today!

[21146]

Not only are the buses erratic in frequency, but each EB arrival at Mile End then seems to prompt a lengthy debate/argument/complaint between passengers and the driver about the RRBS' route,. stopping pattern, reasons for the engineering work etc. It would also be "joined-up" if they served Bow Church DLR to allow further alternate options, but they don't (though have done in the past).

[21146]

Sept 26, 2010 19:01:31 GMT @centralsimon said:

Sept 26, 2010 18:38:22 GMT @diana said:

Thank you, sir.

Today we went back to the same place in the West End. In contrast it was a nice, undelayed journey, took about 35 minutes. Back home in the same manner.

We drove, you see. I had to decline a glass of wine or two, but in contrast there was a huge upside of timesaving and lack of stress. It really is the sensible way to travel.

Can I ask have you put your complaints direct to TfL or perhaps your GLA member or MP? And have you any sort of meaningful reply?

I've emailed TFL Customer Services in the past over this wearing my "other hat" of a Londoner and regular public transport user. Frankly the pro-forma cut & paste reply wasn't worth the paper it was written on and failed to answer any of the detailed, specific, points I raised.

[Ben]

This is a very salient point. TfL for people outside the organisation seems at times to be a totally different beast to the one its staff work for. It seems beurocratic, wasteful and sometimes diliberately misleading. Those inside of course know the reasons why; the foibles, the complexities, the practicalities of how things work vs. how in theory they should. But most of the time the punter doesnt. This needs to be remembered a lot lot more.

[Deleted]

Sept 26, 2010 19:41:26 GMT Ben said:

This is a very salient point. TfL for people outside the organisation seems at times to be a totally different beast to the one its staff work for. It seems beurocratic, wasteful and sometimes diliberately misleading. Those inside of course know the reasons why; the foibles, the complexities, the practicalities of how things work vs. how in theory they should. But most of the time the punter doesnt. This needs to be remembered a lot lot more.

On the next strike day, to prove your point, just look at all the nonsense job titles on their name badges!

[Deleted]

Sept 26, 2010 19:01:31 GMT @centralsimon said:

Sept 26, 2010 18:38:22 GMT @diana said:

Thank you, sir.

Today we went back to the same place in the West End. In contrast it was a nice, undelayed journey, took about 35 minutes. Back home in the same manner.

We drove, you see. I had to decline a glass of wine or two, but in contrast there was a huge upside of timesaving and lack of stress. It really is the sensible way to travel.

Can I ask have you put your complaints direct to TfL or perhaps your GLA member or MP? And have you any sort of meaningful reply?

"Dear Diana,

We have checked the service status messages for the journies you have mentioned. They were all operating a good service."

May well be the response

[Deleted]

Sept 26, 2010 19:01:31 GMT @centralsimon said:

Can I ask have you put your complaints direct to TfL or perhaps your GLA member or MP? And have you any sort of meaningful reply?

Well it's funny you mention this, because we have, a couple of times. They are all passed on from pillar to post between the various organisations. The replies, which tend to turn up months later, do not bear any relation to the original points.

[21146]

They've finally given up. Service now suspended for the rest of the day.

[Chris M]

Apparently this was due, at least in part, to assaults on staff at North Greenwich.

[version3point1]

After having put up with three consecutive weekends of 'trial operations', I've had enough. I tried to deal with it – I tried not to be as obtuse as some of the drivers have been, but really, tonight was the straw to break the camels' back.

Working dead lates this weekend, I've never worked under such conditions where I've felt under such threat from the passengers as a result from the appalling service provided. We were just lucky that tonight The O2 did not have a major event. At about 1830, the gateline was swarming with people who had been told by the Train Op. that the train on the east was detraining and not going to Stratford. Only we'd not been told this on the stations. And rather than actually tell me what the problem was, whilst I was in the middle of telling somebody how to get to Maritime Greenwich, out of nowhere a passenger had decided to forcefully shove me out of the way into a gate in an attempt to exit the station. He then put his ticket right in my face and kept ramming himself against the gate to get out, shouting that he just needed to get out. So I let him out. At this point, we still had not been told officially that we were suspended North Greenwich to Stratford. The man's son also pushed past me and swore at me on the way out, followed by some woman accompanying them, waving her ticket and saying, "I've f***ing got it then so let me out." Still completely unaware as to what was happening and why everybody was now mobbing the gateline, I let this woman out and she crossed to the unpaid side, only to start shrieking at me some gibberish at me in an Irish accent and pointing at another woman who was now in my face shouting "You f***ing four-eyes. You can see? You can see it can't you?" When I tried to shout back at her asking why everybody was going mad, some completely un-related man who was passing through was telling me to "Watch your f***ing mouth" and making hand gestures, whilst another man was trying to hold this shrieking banshee back from hitting me.

After some panicked radio messages back from a colleague asking for confirmation that we were officially suspended, the confirmation came too little too late. Only it then turned out that we weren't allowed to say we were suspended – 'because there is a limited Eastbound service'. With a train stuck on Eastbound Platform 3, trains were coming into the middle platform with drivers under the impression they were reversing to go West, only for the TOD to say it was being routed East. Train Ops in the middle who were having this problem could not get in touch with Service Control, only for another train to occupy yet another platform, leaving us now with two trains on our Westbound platforms but with nobody knowing where exactly they were going, or which trains were departing first (as Ready to Depart Indicators on both platforms would illuminate at the same time – an issue I have raised with Kevin Bootle personally months ago). I would have sooner have closed the station when it came to the point with no trains actually departing the station at all, only by this point in the evening, we couldn't even send people to Stratford by bus because of the Blackwall Tunnel closure commencing at 20:00. But we weren't allowed because we were still officially running a service.

I gave out Customer Service cards and Customer Charter forms to everybody I could see, even people who didn't want or need them, but my argument was, "You never know – you might get more than £4 back." Even with faulty axle-counter blocks at Stratford and West Hampstead, with no trains moving anywhere, the powers that be still refused to admit defeat and say that we were now suspended. Instead, they piled us with useless messages about TOs now being attendance on the track at Stratford. Is that of any consolation to the passengers? Is that of any consolation to the drivers now without relief? Is that going to make things easier for the frontline staff taking the flack? We didn't even have anybody in the ticket office, so nobody could get refunds, yet hey – out station is scheduled to lose a couple of members of staff from the ticket office, so to all of you who want to have a whinge but still get your compensation, good luck getting your refunds.

No weekend of TBTC in passenger service has been without problems so why were there no back-up replacement bus services throughout the day?

Why was this replacement bus service only available for start of traffic until the mid-morning and why was it not allowed to be for the whole of traffic hours?

Why were we not allowed to say that we were suspended, even though trains had not moved from platforms for over 15 minutes?

Why was service status information from NOC almost contradictory to the information being given from Neasden?

With our hallowed 'real-time information' now being reduced to pointless messages about Technical Officers, axle-counter blocks and how we were still running a limited service, and no 'real-time information' about whether trains were going to move, where they were actually going, or whether any of the Service Directors or the Service Manager actually had a bean of usefulness between them, the abuse continued to get worse, to the point that we actually had to withdraw all staff from the gateline and have the BTP take over because of the mob mentality. With the staff retreating to the Control Room, passengers decided they would waste time by banging against the 2-inches of bulletproof glass, rather than just leave the forsaken depths of the Underground and use London Buses.

Then, at 21:56, and having repeatedly called North Greenwich to apologise profusely for the abuse that we had received all evening, Service Control called us to say that the Jubilee line was officially suspended. The station was then to be closed from that point onwards, though one Train Operator on the platform was adamant that they would not detrain until the Line Controller had called them up to make it official. Everybody was in limbo, though tomorrow we will probably all get an email in our inboxes saying that 'We have reached another milestone on the Jubilee line'.

I seriously hope that somebody up in the Ivory Towers goes down for what has happened this evening. That's what I'm wishing. It probably wont come to that though – it'll just come to another weekend of this for the rest of us on terra firma. Perhaps next time it will be worse, with events at Wembley, The O2 and elsewhere co-inciding with one another. Maybe somebody will give me a black eye next time around in the next tirade of abuse to ensue during the next weekend of trial ops.

But for tonight, the powers that be had finally given up and admitted defeat. All too little, all too late.

[Deleted]

I really do think, after reading quite a number of the above messages (but especially the last one) that my comments on not getting any service on Saturday really are just trivia, in comparison to what I am now reading about. How on earth you poor guys at the sharp end, both station personnel and train crews, have put up with this nonsense I am not sure.

I can tell you that if any comparable project in the towers at Canary Wharf you serve (and, by the way, thank you for your daily efforts to achieve this) had something like this weekend's litany of faults happen, the relevant P45s would already be written out by 07.00 on Monday morning for those purporting to manage such a fiasco, very likely a long way up the management chain.

[Deleted]

You'll mostly love a place like Singapore or Hong Kong; there are very few fiascos