TBTC Testing

[Deleted]

I've heard Moscow is very good too!

[version3point1]

Diana – I still think Saturday's service was disgusting for all concerned. A ten-minute service is hardly a good service – and just because it says ten minutes on the boards doesn't mean it'll get to you in ten minutes, as it's ten minutes between North Greenwich and Stratford, but the train at Stratford might not have a driver, so the time on the board then starts counting up for some unknown reason. Passengers should be told OFFICIALLY that we are trialling a new system, that it is known to have faults and that at times there will be a limited service. I tell them myself, because I don't think it's fair that we have to lie. Towards the end of Saturday night, with two eastbound trains left in service, one of them got stuck at Southwark, meaning the very last train was still stuck behind it at Waterloo. With more than four consecutive stations shut along the line, the train was still allowed to run, but with passengers not being able to alight until Canada Water (which was a fiasco within itself, but I wont elaborate). When they got there, most buses to go anywhere that was useful for the passengers (Stratford, &c.) were non-existent, and black cabs had to be ordered and paid for by the company for every single person, a glorious, cost-effective exercise that could've been so easily avoided. This not only put the Station Supervisor in a bit of a predicament, but I think the last passenger was to leave well after 2AM, which isn't acceptable when you expect the last train to get you to Stratford for 0112.

There comes a point where somebody somewhere needs to make a decision and say "No – enough." instead of allowing something to get so ridiculous and so out of hand that the situation is left ten times worse. We kept ringing up and ringing up to ask about this train stuck at Southwark. Is it moving yet? Oh yes – it is, but really slowly that it's not worth waiting for because who knows whether it'll get here before the next century. Only thing is, even though you tell people, "Please – just get the bus away from here," they want to wait for a train. It's only after you tell them that the station is now closing because it's 0115 and the staff are no longer contracted to be there that they decide they are going to do anything else. Luckily, a bus for Stratford turned up just as we'd closed the station. But imagine if the timing had been different.

I know I might have sounded a tad harsh with regards to Service Control. In all respect to them, they made countless apologies to us, and in some ways, it's not really their fault – it's the equipment they have to deal with, and they're only acting under the guidance of a Service Manager and all the other bods who are really keen to push this through to work (I gather now they want it done by November, so look forward to more TBTC weekend trials). I think Service Control knew that they were trying to revive a dead body that had long been dead, but they need to realise that suspending a service entirely to take stock and just take a step back. By their own admission, they have said they were receiving more reports of faults with tracks and trains than they could physically deal with at any one time and they found it hard to say which one they could've prioritised first.

Somebody up on high needs to wake up and smell the coffee. I have never felt such genuine anger and upset because I feel like I've been abused by the company. For ages I failed to see major progress with the Jubilee line, and whilst mere morsels of it would come and go, I decided to give it a go, to support it the best way I can on the weekends, even when some of the faults we experience in trails aren't even in the TBTC station contingency plans – a useless document they have dumped on our stations which they claim was supposed to help us, and I can think of two station based faults that I've dealt with that aren't in this supposed TBTC bible. They've also spent money (which surprises me, as I didn't think LU had any money) on printing out these folding z-type cards (made of lovely matt laminate card stock, with colours, graphics and everything) with an endless list of abbreviations that are of no help to me whatsoever, so I do not carry it, even though they insist that I should. Half of the equipment abbreviations on this said card are bits of kit I don't ever see, won't ever see or will ever have to touch or deal with.

Anyway, if anybody gets a chance to watch a re-run of some show (if they ever show this episode again) called 'How do they do it?', they did feature a lengthy portion about the metro system in Singapore. I think at the time of filming, they're 'Circle line' wasn't quite finished, though it still made some interesting watching. Oh, the advantages of nice new and shiny 'out-of-the-box' systems!

[Deleted]

3.1, about the How Do They Do It; yes it WAS the Circle line; it's now half in service, the rest testing. In Singapore everything is smooth. Only ever had one time we stopped in a tunnel.

HK MTR is still better tho.

[Deleted]

as we speak, the failiure jubilee line is running with minor delays due to an earlier signal failure at westminster.
I really dread to think what other staff have been through these last few weeks, I really do.

[Deleted]

Major delays - just as I'm going home...

[Chris M]

Still causing severe delays as of 23:40 so unlikely to recover before close of traffic I'd have thought. Another successful day.

[londonstuff]

Sept 27, 2010 22:44:44 GMT Chris M said:

Still causing severe delays as of 23:40 so unlikely to recover before close of traffic I'd have thought. Another successful day.

So is TBTC testing being done during the week now, not just the weekend? Bet that's popular

(Did I miss a post explaining this somewhere, it's the first I've heard of it!)

[Deleted]

All of these stories continue to remind me of the Muni Meltdown of 1998 (www.rescuemuni.org/meltdown/metro-comments.html), when the Muni Metro system in San Francisco introduced Seltrac along with a fleet of new trains. Incidentally, Muni is now very good about real-time information about trains in the tunnel, and actually have a website with screen grabs from their dispatching computer, and screens with this same information at stations. You can see this at sfmunicentral.com/. Perhaps something similar could be done for the Jubilee Line, for the benefit of staff and passengers. As for Moscow, they're doing well largely by staying away from Seltrac and ATO in general, and sticking to proven and reliable systems with lots of redundancy so that the service can continue even if something fails.

[littlebrute]

I presumed TBTC was testing on Saturday, first of all was on the platform at Baker Street when it was announced that the service was suspended to Waterloo. Got a Bakerloo to Waterloo, when it was announced that there was a 14 minute wait for a train to Stratford! As I was going to Canary Wharf I just got the W&C and got the DLR. But when it came to getting to the O2 later on in the day, it was still chaos! Although I did smile when the announcer at Canary Wharf said "Good news for once....". A journey that should've taken 2 minutes took nearly half an hour. Surely LU really need to re-evaluate what's going wrong?!

[Deleted]

Sept 28, 2010 7:46:04 GMT @crzwdjk said:

All of these stories continue to remind me of the Muni Meltdown of 1998 (www.rescuemuni.org/meltdown/metro-comments.html), when the Muni Metro system in San Francisco introduced Seltrac along with a fleet of new trains. Incidentally, Muni is now very good about real-time information about trains in the tunnel, and actually have a website with screen grabs from their dispatching computer, and screens with this same information at stations. You can see this at sfmunicentral.com/. Perhaps something similar could be done for the Jubilee Line, for the benefit of staff and passengers. As for Moscow, they're doing well largely by staying away from Seltrac and ATO in general, and sticking to proven and reliable systems with lots of redundancy so that the service can continue even if something fails.

The MUNI Meltdown was pitiful.

Next train: J Church, 209 min.

Sticking to proven and reliable systems with lots of redundency was Soviet doctrine. Very sound.

[version3point1]

For what it's worth, a 'crisis meeting' was held today to look back at what had happened over the weekend. I'm not sure who was in attendance, but my union rep called me up on Monday asking me to forward on everything I'd experienced over the weekend. He has collated information from both trains and stations and seemed very keen to pursue them all in today's meeting. I haven't heard back from him as to how it went and what was discussed, but I'm sure I will find out in due course.

[Deleted]

Sept 28, 2010 7:08:12 GMT londonstuff said:

Sept 27, 2010 22:44:44 GMT Chris M said:

Still causing severe delays as of 23:40 so unlikely to recover before close of traffic I'd have thought. Another successful day.

So is TBTC testing being done during the week now, not just the weekend? Bet that's popular

(Did I miss a post explaining this somewhere, it's the first I've heard of it!)

That evenings problems were down to 'traditional' signalling issues - track circuit problem, not TBTC - only three weekends have been used with TBTC in passenger service as far as I am aware, no weekday running yet.

[Deleted]

when is the next TBTC test?

[version3point1]

They've proposed 14th November. Whether or not there will be an availability of drivers willing to take trains into passenger service in TBTC is another thing.

[Deleted]

That's later today, innit? Let's see how the saga unfolds...

[Deleted]

version3point1 said:

14th November

Oct 14, 2010 2:45:24 GMT axewielder" said:

That's later today, innit? Let's see how the saga unfolds...

Hmmmmm. For some reason I don't think it's November ;D ;D

[Deleted]

Whoops ;D bit in the future, me is...

[Deleted]

Next weekend I hear 23rd/24th Oct - Green Park to somewhere, possibly West Hampstead.
Not sure if that is true though or just a rumour

[Deleted]

Oh joy, another weekend with 10 minute intervals between trains...

[DWS]

Oct 18, 2010 20:01:28 GMT @sw206 said:

Next weekend I hear 23rd/24th Oct - Green Park to somewhere, possibly West Hampstead.
Not sure if that is true though or just a rumour

Its true, TBTC Green Park to West Hampstead, trains run empty
Charing Cross to Green Park 0800 to 2100.

Tripcock Stratford to Waterloo.

[mrfs42]

Oct 22, 2010 18:14:12 GMT DWS said:

10 minute service.

Clockface on both halves?

[DWS]

Oct 22, 2010 18:23:14 GMT mrfs42 said:

Oct 22, 2010 18:14:12 GMT DWS said:

10 minute service.

Clockface on both halves?

Yes .

[Deleted]

Reading in the informative Evening Standard last night, it stated that Jubilee Line T/Ops are refusing to work the new signalling system on safety grounds - i.e. too many failures with trains stuck between stations for too long because of that.

Wonder how much of it is true?

Bodes well for 2012 then!!

[DWS]

Oct 23, 2010 15:11:57 GMT @reganorak said:

Reading in the informative Evening Standard last night, it stated that Jubilee Line T/Ops are refusing to work the new signalling system on safety grounds - i.e. too many failures with trains stuck between stations for too long because of that.

Wonder how much of it is true?

Bodes well for 2012 then!!

Trains are running today in passenger service using the TBTC signalling system between Green Park and West Hampstead,
also running empty between Green Park and Charing Cross using
TBTC.

[Tubeboy]

For once the ES is right, many drivers are refusing to take out trains in TBTC mode and carry passengers. Jubilee has no service between Green Park and North Greenwich. A 3 train shuttle [in tripcock mode] is working between North Greenwich and Stratford.

[DWS]

Oct 23, 2010 15:28:31 GMT Tubeboy said:

For once the ES is right, many drivers are refusing to take out trains in TBTC mode and carry passengers. Jubilee has no service between Green Park and North Greenwich. A 3 train shuttle [in tripcock mode] is working between North Greenwich and Stratford.

The service is now running Stratford to Waterloo, Green Park to West Hampstead.

[Deleted]

Drivers were not refusing to drive trains in TBTC, but just wanted time to ensure they were working well before doing so with passengers, and they are now driving them with passengers on. Most issues seem to be refusing to drive in tunnel section Stratford-Waterloo because of the firefighters industrial action, not because of signalling types.
By all accounts TBTC going well today, but only with about 5 trains out I think

TBTC is Charing X to West Hampstead only, Tripcock is Stratford-Waterloo- it was this part that was suspended earlier due to lack of drivers (should be 11 trains, was only 3 earlier), not the TBTC bit which has been running with 5 trains all day so far.

Seems to be a few trains north of Neasden too - testing I assume?

[DWS]

Two trains were working between Stanmore platforms 1,2 & 3 and Willesden Green on TBTC routes for testing (not in passenger service).

It was only planned to use 5 trains for TBTC between Charing Cross and West Hampstead, with a spare train at Charing Cross siding.

[Ben]

Its a pity CX cant be given a temporary passenger licence; Green Park isn't too convienient for onwards connections.

[Chris M]

I'm sure that TfL have looked into the costs of returning CX to passenger conditions - I think this would mainly involve the reinstatement of the escalators. However, as they haven't returned the station to passenger use, the benefits of having it available for occasions like this are obviously not sufficient to justify the costs.
This does not surprise me as schemes with much greater benefits and lower costs are not getting funded currently.