Photo collection

[roythebus]

BigAl has just passed me details of this site which members may know of, but it has a good selection of photos, mainly 1950's Met, but some other interesting bits:


web.ukonline.co.uk/53amodels//london.htm

There's also a pic of the South Acton shuttle.

[Deleted]

Cool. Since there's T stock inside, I want to know if there was a corridor down the centre or not?

[mrfs42]

No - neither the MW or MV stock (later T) had corridors.

However, the two MW stock trailers converted as part of the pre-A stock experimentation had gangways. 17000 had a centre gangway and 20000 had side gangways.

They appeared in footnotes to the WTTs; 17000 entered service in Jan 1946 and 20000 in Jun 1947 - these vehicles remained in service until 1953 - a second guard needed to be provided, which was the reason for enumerating their workings in WTTs.

[Deleted]

Sept 29, 2010 9:00:59 GMT mrfs42 said:

No - neither the MW or MV stock (later T) had corridors.

However, the two MW stock trailers converted as part of the pre-A stock experimentation had gangways. 17000 had a centre gangway and 20000 had side gangways.

They appeared in footnotes to the WTTs; 17000 entered service in Jan 1946 and 20000 in Jun 1947 - these vehicles remained in service until 1953 - a second guard needed to be provided, which was the reason for enumerating their workings in WTTs.

So the only way in/out was the side slam doors. Roughly how much space was there from knee to knee in each passenger cabin?

I don't think H&S would tolerate such a layout today.

[mrfs42]

Sept 29, 2010 9:13:48 GMT @axewielder said:

I don't think H&S would tolerate such a layout today.

Why? If you've got enough CSAs and central locking plus all the faff written up in SMS/Change Management there shouldn't be a problem.

[Deleted]

Emergency escape, sir.

[mrfs42]

Sept 29, 2010 10:09:09 GMT @axewielder said:

Emergency escape, sir.

<off topic>
HSTs?
</off topic>

Remember - it was the mythical 'Amersham Man' that dictated the Met. main stock was to remain compartmentalised.

[Deleted]

Huh?! HSTs?!

Hm, but eventually he only got racks and hooks ;D

[mrfs42]

Sept 29, 2010 10:26:37 GMT @axewielder said:

Huh?! HSTs?!

Hm, but eventually he only got racks and hooks ;D

There are slam door trains, with central locking and emergency override still running on the british network.

'Amersham Man' got a bit more than that with the internal layout maximised for flexibiliy and semi-privacy; all due to the experimentation and consultation with the two MW stock trailers.

[Deleted]

'Tis a fantastic site, especially for us modellers. I'm currently bodging, sorry, converting a Bachmann Pannier tank into L92 so the two pics on this site are perfect!

[Tomcakes]

There also remain several rakes of Mk2 coaches used on various British Rail services - one of which is in daily service on the Fife Circle.

[Deleted]

Sept 29, 2010 12:27:03 GMT Tomcakes said:

There also remain several rakes of Mk2 coaches used on various British Rail services - one of which is in daily service on the Fife Circle.

How old are they?

[norbitonflyer]

Sept 29, 2010 13:16:41 GMT @axewielder said:

Sept 29, 2010 12:27:03 GMT Tomcakes said:

There also remain several rakes of Mk2 coaches used on various British Rail services - one of which is in daily service on the Fife Circle.

How old are they?

The picture here on "The railway Centre" site shows them to be air-conditioned (Mk2d-f) stock, so early 1970s. Wikipedia says they are Mk 2f, and I have no reason to suppose otherwise, which would make them 1973-5.

[Deleted]

Sept 29, 2010 10:46:48 GMT mrfs42 said:

Sept 29, 2010 10:26:37 GMT @axewielder said:

Huh?! HSTs?!

Hm, but eventually he only got racks and hooks ;D

There are slam door trains, with central locking and emergency override still running on the british network.

'Amersham Man' got a bit more than that with the internal layout maximised for flexibiliy and semi-privacy; all due to the experimentation and consultation with the two MW stock trailers.

Yes, but the HSTs have full corridors too.

Sept 29, 2010 20:01:40 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Sept 29, 2010 13:16:41 GMT @axewielder said:

How old are they?

The picture here on "The railway Centre" site shows them to be air-conditioned (Mk2d-f) stock, so early 1970s. Wikipedia says they are Mk 2f, and I have no reason to suppose otherwise, which would make them 1973-5.

Oh OK. Still sharp?

[norbitonflyer]

I was going to mention the caption gaffes, until I realised someone had beaten me to it
clicky
Although they missed the "A stock- 1950s" one!

I can never tell O, P and Q38 stock apart (unless the O stock has its west end facing me!) so there may be other captioning errors I missed, but even I can't mistake an R stock (albeit a red one) for an O stock!

[Deleted]

O stock had the Guard placed in the rear cab whereas on the P stock the Guard had a door control panel on the inner end of the Motor car. The visible difference is that the P stock DMs have verticle handrails adjacent to the inner end sliding door where the O stock does not. Q38 DMs also had handrails at the inner end of the DM but they also had external air pipes (sorry again, HOSES) on the cab end (Inboard on even numbered cars, outboard on odd numbered cars). The R stock had a single line route indicator under the non-driving window on the front end with a destination panel incorporated at the top of the non-driving windscreen whereas the O/P/Q DMs had a double line route indicator under the non-driving side windscreen. West-facing R stock DMs also had a ward coupling similar to Q stock whereas the east end had an automatic coupling similar to O/P stock. Phew! Modelling the stuff is such fun sometimes! P.S. The anorak is at the cleaners......

[norbitonflyer]

OK, so most of the O and P stock pictures are correctly captioned. However, I'm puzzled by the one captioned "LT O stock
Baker St - 10/3/61". The destination panel appears to read "Uxbridge".

I thought the Uxbridge line was normally operated by P stock?

As we are looking at the east end of the train and the inner end door of the DM is obscured by the signal gantry, neither of the features which would distinguish an O from a P are visible,

[ruislip]

There was a picture dated 27/12/1954 (of a P stock train in Baker St's platform 4 preparing for a run to Uxbridge). Wouldn't that have been Boxing Day? Back in that era, when Boxing Day was on a Monday (and when it was on the 27th owing to the 26th being on Sunday), was that a regular business day for Londoners?

[Deleted]

Boxing Day has long been a bank holiday (ever since they were introduced) south of the border (the Scots had New Year's Day instead).

But at that period it was a service day on the railways, both LT & BR, (as was Christmas Day). Doubtless mrfs42 can provide info on the service provided!

[tubeprune]

Sept 30, 2010 15:54:26 GMT norbitonflyer said:

OK, so most of the O and P stock pictures are correctly captioned. However, I'm puzzled by the one captioned "LT O stock
Baker St - 10/3/61". The destination panel appears to read "Uxbridge".

I thought the Uxbridge line was normally operated by P stock?

As we are looking at the east end of the train and the inner end door of the DM is obscured by the signal gantry, neither of the features which would distinguish an O from a P are visible,

Many of the units on the Met. extension services were mixed O and P units but O Stock motor cars didn't normally work at the outer end of trains. It did get used regularly at the outer ends of trains on the H&C and later, the Circle. [plug]The Underground News series on District Electric Stock is currently describing all these issues. The October issue lists 31 differences between O & P cars[/plug]

[mrfs42]

Oct 1, 2010 7:47:47 GMT etr220 said:

Boxing Day has long been a bank holiday (ever since they were introduced) south of the border (the Scots had New Year's Day instead).

But at that period it was a service day on the railways, both LT & BR, (as was Christmas Day). Doubtless mrfs42 can provide info on the service provided!

I might even have the appropriate TTN to hand. There was a period in the mid- 50s when the Met (and the Met alone) published three separate TTNs for covering 23 - 27, 28, and 29 - 31 December. Quite what Childermas/Holy Innocents did to deserve a TTN of its very own, I'm not quite sure (as I've never had the time to compare/contrast). Watch this space, I'll update later..

[metman]

That photo is of a P stock car, you can tell by the ventilator too. The O stock cars at the D end had a vent similar to the Standard stock. The A end didn't have one!

[mrfs42]

Hmm, I think the 12/54 pictures could well be mis-dated.

Why? Well, the picture of Sir Ralph Verney has two things that make me think it is of a later date

• the 'Abbey National' hoarding has the later, more modern typeface , which I think came in in 1956/7 [1]
  
• Sir Ralph Verney has a paint date of 7/55
  
• the url for the image is http://www.53a-pix.co.uk/picture/LT3-UN-1958.jpg

[1]based on various photographs of Briggate in the final flings of the Leeds trams.


The two-figure numbering predates the A stock, and based on various scraps of information, I'd say that the pictures labelled 27/12/54 I'd place an educated guess that these pictures were taken within the space of about an hour; probably about 13.45 - 14.45 - but that's only with partial bits of information, probably aroundabout 1958, 1959 at the latest. However, if you discount the picture of Sir Ralph Verney as being chronologically inaccurate, then the pictures would be timed to something like 10.45 - 12.00 in 1954, but this is a bit more of an outside guess.

[tubeprune]

Oct 1, 2010 8:11:36 GMT tubeprune said:

Sept 30, 2010 15:54:26 GMT norbitonflyer said:

OK, so most of the O and P stock pictures are correctly captioned. However, I'm puzzled by the one captioned "LT O stock
Baker St - 10/3/61". The destination panel appears to read "Uxbridge".

I thought the Uxbridge line was normally operated by P stock?

As we are looking at the east end of the train and the inner end door of the DM is obscured by the signal gantry, neither of the features which would distinguish an O from a P are visible,

Many of the units on the Met. extension services were mixed O and P units but O Stock motor cars didn't normally work at the outer end of trains. It did get used regularly at the outer ends of trains on the H&C and later, the Circle. [plug]The Underground News series on District Electric Stock is currently describing all these issues. The October issue lists 31 differences between O & P cars[/plug]

Sorry, it'll be the November issue.

[SE13]

I often struggle with A, C and D stock! I'm terrible with SSL trains.

Some of the pictures do look to be different dates to that captioned, I'm not entirely convinced that engines were still being used in 1961, however I didn't start using the system until the back end of the 60's, and given that I was only a toddler, memory isn't great.

[Deleted]

How could you struggle with A, C and D stocks!? They are all so different!!!

[norbitonflyer]

Oct 6, 2010 14:12:55 GMT @axewielder said:

How could you struggle with A, C and D stocks!? They are all so different!!!

Easy peasy - look at the headlights.
Both on one side of the cab door - A Stock
One each side of the cab door - C stock
None on the cab front - D stock (they are on the solebar)

The position of the train set numbers also differs (below the offside window/below the cab door window/in the cab door window)

Or from the side
Three door openings* - A stock
Four double doors - C stock
Four single doors - D stock

* all double except at the trailing ends of the DMs

[slugabed]

Oh,and slab-sides (Biscuit tin) D-Stock.
Since they got red fronts I find them all harder to tell apart though...
I miss the days when different stocks were different colours.