snow and disruption

[ducatisti]

OK, it's not happened yet, but at some point, the line will give out when a train gets stuck at the bottom of the bank into High Barnet, and will start dumping people onto busses at Finchley Central.

Is there any reason why they can't borrow a Schoma (sp) and bank/pilot trains up?

Assuming T&W crossover isn't workable for non-passenger moves, it does mean quite a bit of additional mileage, and it would need a low-loader to get it there (probably a bit tricky now it's started slowing), but it's a bit galling to be thrown out so far from home...

[harlesden]

I am thinking that in the 1950's and 1960's, LT would have had a team of strong men on hand with shovels and machines to clear tracks of snow just as on British Rail.
Perhaps LU just like Network Rail simply wait for the snow to melt with no regard for the inconvenience to passengers.

[Deleted]

Nov 30, 2010 9:00:17 GMT ducatisti said:

Is there any reason why they can't borrow a Schoma (sp) and bank/pilot trains up?

I wonder how keen LU would be to couple a 95ts to an engineering train on a gradient again.........

[ducatisti]

Good point Rob... Still, if they could get the brakes on again by the time it got to East Finchley we'd only be back where we started... i'm sure with judicious use of crossovers and service gaps it wouldn't affect running too much.

Harlsedon - presumably the live rails would make that a touch tricky...

p.s. what is a "world class" Mass Transit Railway/City/jam/etc? What if you get relegated? do you have to compete against the like of the Birmingham tram?

[Phil]

Nov 30, 2010 9:31:40 GMT @rob said:

Nov 30, 2010 9:00:17 GMT ducatisti said:

Is there any reason why they can't borrow a Schoma (sp) and bank/pilot trains up?

I wonder how keen LU would be to couple a 95ts to an engineering train on a gradient again.........

[Ben]

How comes the northern doesnt require a sandite train? Presumably its duties are performed by other stock?

[setttt]

Nov 30, 2010 11:06:00 GMT Ben said:

How comes the northern doesnt require a sandite train? Presumably its duties are performed by other stock?

How would a sandite train help combat the snow/ice issue?

[Oracle]

I can see the confusion here...Sandite is a sticky substance that is used when the rails are covered in resin from leaves. There used to be dedicated sleet locomotives, and trains that had de-icing facilities which were intended to deal with the necessary application of de-icing fluid. The Met had a twin-car as it were converted from T stock driving motors back-to-back. The Northern had ESLs on the open sections. Now I assume their work is down to tube stock de-icing cars?

[North End]

Nov 30, 2010 9:00:17 GMT ducatisti said:

OK, it's not happened yet, but at some point, the line will give out when a train gets stuck at the bottom of the bank into High Barnet, and will start dumping people onto busses at Finchley Central.

Is there any reason why they can't borrow a Schoma (sp) and bank/pilot trains up?

Assuming T&W crossover isn't workable for non-passenger moves, it does mean quite a bit of additional mileage, and it would need a low-loader to get it there (probably a bit tricky now it's started slowing), but it's a bit galling to be thrown out so far from home...

Firstly, the only lines to have rail adhesion trains are the Central and Metropolitan, because these are the lines who suffer the most from the problem, due to a variety of factors.

Rail adhesion trains are primarily to clean the railhead from leaf mulch, they are not designed to deal with ice & snow.

The main problem with ice & snow is the current rails icing up and preventing the 630vDC supply from reaching the trains.

The only defence against that problem is running regular sleet trains to spray de-icing fluid onto the current rails, both during the traffic day and overnight. These are frequently supplemented by battery-loco-hauled de-icing trains, these ran overnight last year on the Northern Line, and I have seen paperwork to suggest they are running overnight at present as well.

This is all to be supplemented by manual (i.e. by hand) de-icing of depot & sidings areas, as well as all the usual measures like making sure point heaters are working properly, depot walkways are de-iced for staff safety, et cetera.

Running sleet trains overnight means any planned maintenance has to be cancelled, which could have reliability implications.

Totteridge crossover is available for use, however in icy & snowy conditions, use of a ground-frame-worked crossover is not a good idea. Firstly the levers, points and rodding will most likely be frozen, and secondly there's always a small danger that if there's ice or snow caught in the point blades a derailment could occur, despite the points requiring to be secured manually as an additional precaution).

[ducatisti]

Can you give some idea of what these factors for sandite trains are? I'd think the seep and fairly wooded bank down from High Barnet to Totteridge would benefit from a sandite.

I appreciate de-icers run, but they were overwhelmed last year (I have the sore feet for walking from Finchley Central to home in Barnet to prove it) so I was thinking about over and above that.

[Ben]

Would anyone believe it if I said I was reading two threads at once and posted on the wrong board?...

[North End]

Nov 30, 2010 14:49:13 GMT ducatisti said:

Can you give some idea of what these factors for sandite trains are? I'd think the seep and fairly wooded bank down from High Barnet to Totteridge would benefit from a sandite.

I appreciate de-icers run, but they were overwhelmed last year (I have the sore feet for walking from Finchley Central to home in Barnet to prove it) so I was thinking about over and above that.

Okay, things which make the Central & Met lines suffer most:
- Long sections of open air running
- Relatively infrequent service
- High line speeds
- Steep gradients
- Automatic trains (Central Line)
- Elderly trains not fitted with Wheel Slip Protection system (Met)

The only way to keep trains running in ice & snow is to keep a steady stream of de-icing trains running over the open sections, spraying de-icing fluid over the current rails in order to keep the trains picking up a good supply of 630vDC.

Maybe 26 out of 106 1995 stock trains isn't enough trains fitted with de-icing gear, but at nearly 1/4 fleet is about the same proportion as fitted to all LUL fleets.

[Deleted]

Nov 30, 2010 16:29:50 GMT North End said:

Nov 30, 2010 14:49:13 GMT ducatisti said:

Can you give some idea of what these factors for sandite trains are? I'd think the seep and fairly wooded bank down from High Barnet to Totteridge would benefit from a sandite.

I appreciate de-icers run, but they were overwhelmed last year (I have the sore feet for walking from Finchley Central to home in Barnet to prove it) so I was thinking about over and above that.

Okay, things which make the Central & Met lines suffer most:
- Long sections of open air running
- Relatively infrequent service
- High line speeds
- Steep gradients
- Automatic trains (Central Line)
- Elderly trains not fitted with Wheel Slip Protection system (Met)

The only way to keep trains running in ice & snow is to keep a steady stream of de-icing trains running over the open sections, spraying de-icing fluid over the current rails in order to keep the trains picking up a good supply of 630vDC.

Maybe 26 out of 106 1995 stock trains isn't enough trains fitted with de-icing gear, but at nearly 1/4 fleet is about the same proportion as fitted to all LUL fleets.

Not to mention a lot of track surrounded by dense trees - Central east end and Met suffer this terribly, even compared to parts of the High Barnet branch.

[Colin]

Admin Comment:

This thread is on the verge of being split (Sandite is irrelevant) or moved (getting a bit general for a Northern line thread).....

Can we please keep to the subject as stated in the original post.

[21146]

I was musing as to why LT never built dual-purpose De-icing/Sandite locos, but:

In the past de-icing was the main problem, and friction brakes cleared leaf mulch from wheels.

Now trains have sleet brushes and there are more de-icing trailers, but modern brakes do not always cope well with leaf-fall.

De-icing and leaf-clearing involves two different sets of rails of course!

[Deleted]

The a Rail Adhesion Train ventured to South Harrow to reverse tonight. Not quite sure why. Was told that it was 62TS.

And whatever happene to Tube Lies' snowploughs that could be fitted to the Schoma's if I recall.

[ducatisti]

I wonder how much neg rail a badly-adjusted snow plough would collect?...

The reason I suggest the diesel is that IIRC (and I could well be wrong), the 95 stock only *just* failed to get up the hill and caused by a combo of a lack of traction, power and electricity. As everything else was in the same boat, it couldn't be easily rescued.

I suspect the recent runaway train will put paid to such ideas though. (Although, from an H&S consideration, how much extra risks are passenger exposed to by making their way by other routes...)

[Tomcakes]

Dec 1, 2010 13:30:56 GMT ducatisti said:

(Although, from an H&S consideration, how much extra risks are passenger exposed to by making their way by other routes...)

The cynic in me supposes that, once the passengers have been sent packing to make their way home via another route, LU don't care what risks they're exposed to, as they're not on their property.

[ducatisti]

of course. The biggest problem with H&S is that it frequently isn't considered in a whole-life situation. even if LU wanted to, their insurers would tell them not to.

An irony of [the big ECML crash that wasn't Potter's Bar] crash aftermath was that there was a statistically-correlateable increase in road deaths for the duration of all the PW slacks when they checked the track. People drove to avoid the delays...

[Chris M]

Dec 1, 2010 14:40:47 GMT ducatisti said:

An irony of [the big ECML crash that wasn't Potter's Bar] crash aftermath...

The incident you are thinking of is almost certainly the Hatfield crash of 17 October 2000

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatfield_rail_crash

[ducatisti]

that is the one.

anyway, returning to topic. What did they do in the great winters of the 50s and 60s
Presumably steam locomotives were never used to nudge tube trains in passenger service?

Mike